Shane Mcleod edit
Mon, Feb 12, 2024 7:16AM • 59:27
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
players, coach, play, team, game, athletes, belgium, type, new zealand, group, won, people, bit, working, hockey, shane, sit, coaching staff, put, love
SPEAKERS
Paul Barnett, Shane Mcleod, Eric Knight
Paul Barnett 00:00
Hello, Shane McLeod, and welcome to the Great coach's podcast.
Shane Mcleod 00:05
Yes, thanks. Thanks for the invitation. Looking forward to it. Looking
Paul Barnett 00:08
forward to it as well, Shane, and I'm joined, of course by my colleague, Professor Eric Knight from Macquarie business school. How are you, Eric? And well, Paul, very much looking forward to getting into this discussion today on all things, teams and leadership. But Shane, as we always do, could we just start with a simple question? Where are you in the world? And what have you been up to so far today?
Shane Mcleod 00:32
Yeah, so I'm in Spain at the moment. So we're in a preparation tournament, preparing for the qualifying tournament to go to the Paris Olympics. So we have five games here. And today, we we've finished off our food game, first was against India. Second was against France. And today, we played up against Spain, which was the local side. So we were just going through all those processes, getting selection in order and in our game in order. But yeah, it's a great place to be at this time of year, the weather is actually pretty good, compared to the rest of Europe, and so on. So we're enjoying, and we've had three ones. So that always makes the trip even nicer, once
Paul Barnett 01:20
a little late at night there. So we do appreciate you coming on to talk to us about all things field hockey. Shane, could I start by just well, let's begin at the start, you were introduced to hockey through your art. And she was a manager of the National Women's team back in New Zealand. So tell us a little bit about how that experience shaped you?
Shane Mcleod 01:42
Yeah, look, I think everyone gets introduced or it's always a nice, nice way to find out where that passion has come from and what's driven that passion and in property, I was lucky enough to be surrounded by someone that that shared a very similar passion. And I'm not sure if I love the game because of the game itself, or I grew to love it. But I certainly know that I love my auntie and she used to take me down to hockey as a as a young fellow. And the experience itself was spending time with someone and then falling in love with all of the things in around the game, you know, the people, the the rituals, the camaraderie, the winning the losing all those type of things. I found really intriguing as a youngster, and and that kind of triggered my my passion for the game. And I guess in a way, it started to lay the path that I ended up following, you know, I, without really knowing it at an early stage, I started to be attracted to those things that in the end became the skill sets that I acquired to become coaching, you know, one of the best field hockey teams in the world. But you don't know it at the time, you know. And so that was my early introduction. So was it because of her that I loved the game? Probably, but it was certainly because of her that that I spent so much time surrounded by the game
Paul Barnett 03:20
you played for representative teams, and you did represent New Zealand. But the selectors gave you this feedback that you thought you liked the idea of playing for New Zealand more than you actually wanted to play for New Zealand, which I imagine was was pretty hard feedback, but added a go on to shape you when you became a leader.
Shane Mcleod 03:42
Yeah, well, that probably that lines probably a bit. It's stuck with me, but it's probably more to more of a backstory to it, you know, likely. I did always want to play for New Zealand. And I think the the comment that was given to me after a miss selection, you know, it kind of shapes you. And I think it does one of two things. One, it builds a resolve that look, that's rubbish, and I really want to prove them wrong and so on. Well, the second it pushes you in a different direction. And, and for me, it was kind of a little bit of a so demotivating that I thought look on have given everything. I've tried everything, I've done everything and and it's not being recognized, you know, and therefore, you know, maybe, maybe it's not my calling, maybe I need to be doing something else and it kind of shifted me into the coaching field.
But what it has done is it's made me very, very mindful of comments that he says a coach, and players grab ahold of things and what might have been a throwaway line from a coach at the time became something that was that big came really important to me, you know, I never wanted to say that to a player or never have a player take a message in a way that ever deterred them from being better. You know, and I think that's, that's one of the responsibilities that that leaders have. And coaches have, you know, you have to be very careful that you don't crush players. And their hopes, you have to be honest with them, for sure, but but the degree of tact and subtleness that you have to have is really important.[PB1]
Eric Knight 05:34
The shine building on that, I mean, you've, you've said elsewhere, that you've, you've got a great love of working with people from different cultures, different places, different perspectives, can you speak a little bit to your experience in what it takes to build connection with groups of people that are coming from diverse backgrounds?
Shane Mcleod 05:52
Yeah, well, look, I've been lucky to travel, you know, and that's given me it's given me a glimpse into the variety and the different cultures that are that are built up and the different value systems and, and, and that around the world, but probably the biggest diversity that you see is actually is not, how do I describe this, it's more the makeup of, of individual people, you know, like, if someone's an extrovert or an introvert, or if they're, you know, very agreeable, or those type of things actually is, is one of the the biggest differences that you see in in teams, you know, and when I came to Belgium, one of the things that's incredibly interesting about the team that, that I've been working with, as you have a French speaking part of the country, and you have a Flemish speaking counter part of the country, and in the past, what had happened with coaches before me is that, if he was a French speaking coach, the French players, they would have an affinity with them, they'd feel very comfortable with them. And the Flemish speaking, not so much, they feel a little bit like outsiders and so on. And vice versa, if it was a Dutch coach that spoke Flemish, the same thing would happen in reverse, and kind of, because I've been gifted with the ability to not speak either of those language overly well. I sit in this place, that can observe quite easily and, and to appreciate the differences in your players and promote those differences. And that diversity is really important, it just makes the conversations you have so much richer, it means that the qualities that you bring out, are always of much greater quality than if you just, you know, have you have everyone exactly the same. And you think you've runs exactly the same. So, so that was the I've been lucky enough to observe that and, and there's a every team, you have different personalities, which is really your greatest diversity, not not necessarily the culture, or where they've come from, but we're how they think, because of their culture, or where they've come from.
Eric Knight 08:26
So wondering if you could give us an example of how you have brought that out. And, and look, you've said, you know, in the past that, you know, when you're looking to build a team, you're not only creating purpose to that team, but also making sure that the people find meaning in their individual tasks and roles within that team. So I wondered if, you know, maybe in your career coaching role for the national team in Belgium, just speak a little bit to some of the activities that you've done, or the conversations that you engender to help build that purpose, both collective and individual,
Shane Mcleod 09:02
you're probably the first thing that you do when you go into a group is you try and find where the group is at, you know, and I've been really lucky to work with some talented people. And I had a very gifted assistant coach had actually played for Belgium, and then it moved very quickly from playing into, into the coaching staff and him and I worked together quite a lot. And we, we sat and we discussed what are the needs for this particular group. And we came up with kind of five things, but the first was that there was no appreciation of the diversity. So they they players tended to when they all came together would tend to eat and clusters and talking clusters and the club groups basically. And so what we wanted to try and do is we wanted to break down that that particular thing. So we took the group to South Africa one time And it was just before the Olympics, or 10 months before the Olympics. And we really wanted to shift the group on, but we wanted to see where we were starting from. And so what we did on the first three days was that we plotted where each of the players set, and the dining room. So for breakfast, lunch, and dinner, and what was really interesting is that they, they set in the exactly the same place for all of those meals. And the table settings were round tables. And so they would sit with players from what tax would be at this one, to players from drag on, from Breck scatter, and so on. So that was one thing, but there was also like this imaginary divide in the dining hall or dining room, where the French players were sitting in the me and Flemish players were sitting. And so we, we thought, Look, we've got to change this.
So we did a whole series of type of speed dating type of things, you know, like, not not, swipe left and swipe right, or the modern generation, that the old school way where you sat in front of the person, and yet, you spoke to them, and you tell them a couple of things that they that they did really well. And then one interesting thing that you found about how they operated and so on. And when we started to do these type of activities, we noticed some things, we noticed that there was a change in the seating. So they would, rather than just sitting in the cluster group, whoever they walked in with, they would sit down, and they would start having a conversation, whether it was revisiting what was said earlier or whatever. We also noticed that the room and sorry, the volume in the room got louder and louder, you know, says the breakdowns of the small cliques evaporated, the forming of this bigger group, we call it our circle of trust started to grow larger and larger. No, it was, you know, it was a really interesting thing to to observe. And then that continued to manifest itself and other heroes as well. So that was the first the first task was that rebuilding the almost the emotional environment, not just the the physical environment. [PB2] SHINee
Paul Barnett 12:23
said, Actually, there was five needs you identified. We've got to it, but was there any others?
Shane Mcleod 12:29
Yeah, there were a few. So. So the the Unity was a strength was certainly the the one about the bringing the languages together, you know, and probably a little anecdote. The third one is this, we spoke about using that skill. So there's a gift in Belgium. So if you ever go to Belgium, one of the things that will happen is that the people from Belgium are incredibly gifted in language. And so when you go meet them, they'll speak to in your language. And I said this to the players, you know, like, well, let's use the skill. And so when we play a team, like France, let's do all of our game plan and our, our strategy on the field, let's do it in Flemish, and then they don't know what's going on. And then when we play against Holland, let's do all of our game plan and strategy and French, and they don't know what's going on. I always have a joke when and when we play Korea. Or don't worry about those guys, because no one knows what's going on. But to the players, it was the first time that the city of have been presented in such a positive way. So again, it's just reinforcing that, that diversity that's that's always ever present in groups if you if you bring it out. The next one was better people. And this was a strategy that that I tried to bring him because I know myself quite well. And I'm going into a new group. And basically, my job tasks was to try and form a team and 10 months to get ready to go to the Olympic Games. And so when you get an appointment like that, you make a list of all the things that you'd love to have operating in your environment. And it's quite a creative type of list. But nine myself, I thought, Look, there's probably three or four that I can drive myself and have going well. But there's probably, you know, another 20 odd that that I'd need help with.
So what I what I did was I gave or set the new group, a homework task. And this homework task was to try and force a conversation because I'm a big believer in in communicating with the athletes and trying to get as much information out of them as possible. And so I set this really simple homework task and the task was for them to tell me what they're starting at 11 All players would be for the Olympics. If we were going in two weeks time, who would they pick? And the only criteria we asked with that was that they had to put them in that team. And then we would ask, or I would ask a series of questions. And it's a really nice way to get the athletes to talk openly about their strengths. So I'd ask them, look, why have you put yourself in this position you've selected yourself, for example, is the sentiment and they talk about their strengths. I'm good at this, this is how I think I can contribute to the team. And this is when I play and so on. And then I asked him a little bit about the players around so you've put display here, tell me, why do you? Why do you connect well with them? Why is he important? How does he make you play better, and you get a really nice information list about the players and how they're going. And what's coupled with that is at the end of the homework task, when I've interviewed all of the players, there's probably about four, maybe five players that appear on everyone's list. And it's as a coach, that's great, because you don't have to discuss them anymore. Those players around, you know, they're the glue, and they're the ones that you can rely on, because everyone enjoys playing with them. And there's reasons for that. And probably the next question that follows as I asked them to give themselves a rating out of 10, for, for where they feel are eight in the group and stuff like that. And it's always the same number, they always say, seven, and it's quite a good number, because I then followed up with that guy. If you're a seven, what do you need from us as a coaching staff, me as a head coach and all of our other support staff? What do you need from us to turn you from a seven to an eight, or even better a nine or a 10? And it's a really nice intro for them. We're just talking about the needs, what do they need, what's the environment they want to be working in, and so on. So, so that's really very handy to have that type of information. [PB3]
And, and that leads me to the better people. At the end of this, I ask a difficult question. And I asked them, What do you bring to this group? You know, and because they've, they, it's a coach sitting in front of them, they often talk about the sport themselves, they talk all along, I run hard, or I train hard. And I stopped them there. And I say, Oh, look, I've asked you the wrong way. What I mean, as if we didn't select you, why would this place not be as great a place to work? And what do you bring, what do you offer to our working environment. And it's a hard one for athletes to come up with straightaway. So this is where my list comes in. I say, if, if you can't think of something where you're contributing to the team in some sort of way, making it a better place, then you can have something from my list. And I give them a couple of days. None of them want to have a look at my list, I think because they all come back. And they're all got these ideas of little projects that they can do to help the environment and shift us on. [PB4]
And there was one that had an incredible effect, ripple on effect and illustrates the thing quite well. So there was a guy that that was in the team, and had been in the team for a while but set a little bit outside the main group, you know, like he was a super nice guy, but he thought about things differently. And therefore a what, presuming wasn't part of that main group, and he rings me quite late one evening. So it was about 11 o'clock at night, which is even in Belgium and Europe, that that's late. And he starts his conversation with. I'd like to have a small budget. And so I thought, okay, here we go, what's this all about? And he started to explain, he said, I've got this friend that owns a fruit vegetable store. And he would love to do something for the Belgian Red Lions, you know, and what I thought is that, if I make an order, and he delivers a whole lot of fruit and vegetables, if I can get a budget to buy a couple of big blenders, then I can make some smoothies on our double training days. So the guys would come in, I'd go out and I'd make some smoothies, put them on the table and then finish the shower. They come in I'd go over shower and join them later in the smoothie sit down. And I thought wow, that's that's such a great idea. Great concept. It's very gear giving and selfless and sharing are quite like that. And so we watch this unfold and To each day, there was a double training session he was inundated with, with players saying, Oh, wow, that's thank you so much. And it brought him much closer to the group. You know, they talked about the recipes and all that type of thing. And if that's all it was, it was really enough. But the profound thing that I recognized was that in making those smoothies, he had to go out the back, and he would work with the catering staff, and preparing his smoothies. And he got an insider's view into how incredibly proud the catering staff were, were of preparing food for the Belgian Red Lions, you know, there was the they looked at them and all. And so he feed that information back to the players. And again, we watched, and what we watched was players that that used to just leave the the plates and knives and for all the cutlery there and they'd go off play cards or go on half asleep before the second training that we've watched them train change, and they went from being that person to picking up all the cutlery, taking it out the bag, putting their plates in a certain area, putting the knives and forks in a different thing. And just trying to make the job as easy as possible for the catering staff, you know, and, and then in a day like that, when you observe that you recognize that that circle of trust that we were talking about just actually grows a little bit bigger starts to capture the people in and around it. And in the catering staff very much felt as if they were part of the Olympic journey, you know, when we weren't gold, they weren't gold. And it was it just was triggered by a very simple kind act that grew and grew and grew. So I quite like sharing that story. It's very long, sorry. But it's, it's a nice one, just to understand that little things make massive changes somewhere along the line.
Paul Barnett 22:02
It's a great story, Shane, thank you for sharing it, I mean it, it talks to just the power of selflessness. You're doing something every day for somebody else. And the other idea in there, too, of course, is the power of mealtimes as a mechanism to build connection. So thank you for sharing, sharing, could I talk a little bit about your style, you've, you've been very open about the fact that when you started as a coach, it was all about relaying information quickly to someone to help them. And then it shifted. And you describe it, as you know, helping people discover answers for themselves. That was quite a, those are your words to describe the shift. The evidence in the power of that shift is in the cost of medals, and the championships the team has won. But could I look at it from a different angle and and just ask, did your shift as a coach as the team leader? Did that have any impact on the way people started to feel a sense of belonging within the team?
Shane Mcleod 23:06
Yeah, a big part like the the story or my my coaching journey has a bit of a bump in the road, to be honest. Actually a fork in the road, and then a bump in the road. So how what I mean by that is when I first got an international gig. So how it came about or was that I was an assistant coach that had come back from Europe to New Zealand to work with what I perceived as is going to be my mentor over the next few years and trying to shape my career and get ready to take over a team. Very quickly. Like within six months, he moved from the men's program to the women's program. He tells me it wasn't because of me, but it was very soon after I arrived. And what also coincided with that was there wasn't a great interest for other coaches to come in and take the team. So there was a series coming up in January and New Zealand. Holland were coming out so Holland were the best team in the world at the time, or certainly one or two. And there was no one to lead the program. So what New Zealand hockey did they see like blockchain? Can you step in? And can you take the team for this particular series? And I said, Sure, look, I've got nothing to lose, this is the best thing in the world. But I'm gonna need help. And so what I did was I got all the all of the players to rally around and I said, Look, come on, let's let's design something that we're really proud of and that we can do together and, and I was incredibly inclusive and what we did, and we came up with very, very good game plan, but a very basic game plan, but everyone built it, you know, and so my first game In Charge, we won, we beat Holland. And I'm not going to tell people that they were jet lagged or, or that they were quite fresh off the plane, all those things might have been in case but we weren't. And, and they gave us some confidence. And we went on to have quite a lot of success all through 22,006.
And we qualified for the Olympics 2007, which is not a given for New Zealand and, and went to Beijing, and everything was going pretty well, we're playing good hockey and, and how's it doing what job I was quite proud of, then after Beijing, we I had a chance to reflect on things and I thought, Look, no one else is going to take this, I love what I'm doing. But I'm gonna have to do it better. And, and my thinking of that, what happened is I went from being very collaborative, I went very much into looking into the computer and studying and doing a whole lot of tactical awareness stuff. And because of that, I think I learned how to beat every team in the world. The problem that I had was that I had moved away from my players group. And I lacked the ability to bring them with me. And so somewhere between 2008 and 2012 You never know the day it happens. But you never know the time it happens. But there was a shift you No, no, I didn't have that same connection with the players and, and we had a devastating result in 2012, with the New Zealand men's team, we finished ninth out of 12 teams at the Olympics, which if your ninth or around the year, okay worth, but I actually thought we had a much better team. And so that's, that was my bump. And it was kind of a come to Jesus moment with myself law, I've got to do things differently. If I want to make a career in this, then I have to go back and do what I used to do, you know, bring players with me and get them to create with me. And so that's that's kind of shaped my philosophy. And now if I see young coaches or, or any coach going in that direction, I just really say that a Be careful, you know, stay with your group and the computer stuff is fine. But but you're better off knowing your team than knowing your game planning, you know, and so, yeah, there was quite a big shift.[PB5]
Eric Knight 27:40
So building on that, Shane, and taking you then to your Belgian days, you've said that what you achieved in building the culture in that team has been a key driver of success. Can you say something about how you think about and define culture? And what you say to be the key building blocks for a thriving culture?
Shane Mcleod 28:00
Yeah, I think there's, there's a few parts to it. Like, it's a bit mysterious, you know, like, if anyone can paint a perfect picture of what culture looks like, I'd love to buy that and hang it on the wall, because it's, it's so varied, and it means different things to different people. But what I try is I try a process, you know, like, I think you build culture, largely through trust and experiences. And quite a bit of it depends on the timeframe. So for example, if, if the three of us all of a sudden, we're in the same room, and we charged out the room, and we see we're going to do it, we're going to jump out a plane together, you know, and because it's weird, because there's an element of whatnot, we're not going to do that we're going to do it. That type of experience, if we shared that together would bond us for life, you know, we would, whenever we'd run into each other or, or we hear from each other, we'd be triggered by this thing that we've done together.
So for me, it's trying to create a whole lot of little things like that, due to that same bond, you know, and that same unity with your group. And so, yeah, for me, it's really 100 Little things that makes that big thing you know, we've done stuff with our Belgian Red Lions like paragliding, and a whole lot of different things, but the day to day stuff is also really important. So, the training environment, so we work really hard to make the physical environment stimulating, you know, we talk about our role in the in the aspiring the next generation so giving some purpose to, to what we do beyond just the hockey you know, without you know, hockey is our tool to Actually, to reach a broader audience, you know, and we have some responsibility, we have to, we have to take every opportunity we can to, to promote our support and promote the values that we strongly believing, you know, and it has to be role modeled from top down to the bottom. So that's, that's a little bit what I think about culture. [PB6] [PB7]
And, but I truly understand the importance of it. And I truly understand that it's not something that you do, and then you just tick a box and think pop culture is built, it's constantly being worked at. And some of the things are tricks to see where you're at with your culture. You know, a simple example that I I'll give you two simple examples.
And the other thing is, I set up compulsory habits with myself. And one that I have is every time I jump in a car, I ring up player, and it can be any any of the players and for no particular reason. But sometimes I too, I have a bit of a strategy. And my strategy is to help a player feel more integrated into our culture, or ring them in a time when they really don't expect a call from me. And I'll try and connect with something that I've done recently that I find incredibly positive. For example, I might ring a plan, say, look, I saw you play last week, and I was really impressed with these elements of your game, I also saw that you did something, you know, you, you were on the sideline, helping one of the new players come into our team and doing a bit of coaching, and all encouraged the behaviors. So I think are really strong behaviors with it. And if you flip it around, a player that receives a coach for me a call from the head coach, there's often that's nervous or have done something wrong. And what I will often try and do is know you've done something, right, you know, and make sure that we have a lot of big conversations along the way, so that if there is a tough conversation and end, there's a balance, you know, they don't get scared anymore of me calling them and ask them if they want to go for a coffee and discuss how they're getting on here. So those are a couple of culture things just to keep it keep it working.
Paul Barnett 33:40
Shane, you've been leading Belgium since 2015, which in coaching terms is I guess it's like 100 years, really, it's a long time. What impact do you think stability and leadership has on teams?
Shane Mcleod 33:57
Or its immense you know, like, when I came in, I was the fifth coach and for years, and I put, you know, the when I came in, we were like, I'm not gonna say we're lucky to get results, but we went pretty quickly to number one in the world. And that came through a few things and stability of coaching was very much part of that, you know, and and I think when you building a group of or a team of people, there are some things that that need to change and freshen up. Even when a coach has been in there for for a number of years. The coach changes and evolves as well. You know, like when I first took on the team, the expectation of the team was not certainly not so high. And because we were operating number five number six number seven in the world. You always said someone to chase you know someone to heart There was always someone above you. And then something happened, you know, by the time 2018 came around where we were silver and Rio, and we won the gold medal and World Cup in 2018. And all of a sudden, we went from hunting to being hunted.
tAnd so you either when that happens, things change in, in perspective, you know, like, you start to search for something new to aspire to. Now, if you have longevity of a of approach or stability of a coach, they, they can connect that journey, you know, they can, they can see what the next step is, and they can see the evolution. So I think that's really important. And also, you know, the safety and in and having a coaching staff that that runs for length of time, he know what the standards are. So, you know, when you come into a team, you know, what's expected. And if you keep changing your coaches, there's always new expectations, and that causes turmoil. So I think there are massive benefits with with that continuity.[PB9] [PB10]
Paul Barnett 36:20
I have a quote here, from you, Shane, that I'd like to explore, you say, learning how to give and receive feedback is as important as knowing how to give to receive a pass to be beautiful in its simplicity. If someone listening wanted to get better at the skill of feedback, what would you tell them to do?
Shane Mcleod 36:41
Talk often, you know, all those things that we've been discussing, so far, they have a flow on effect, you know, the having coffees with your players, the speed dating, all the the homework tasks, all of these things are kind of ways to set up that line of communication, you know, and why that isn't important is that let me put it another way, we actually, I have some very hard conversations with people very direct, and often very hard to hear, and are almost impossible to hear. If there's not a balance. As I said, if the only time I talk to my players to tell them off, or tell them bad news, that's not giving, receiving feedback, that's just critiquing, you know, and so when we have all of these conversations, when I have the tougher ones, the players genuinely know that I have their best interest at heart, you know, they know that I'm working towards having the amount the Olympic Games, or having our team performing at the very best, there's no hidden agendas, they know the the honesty and what we do. Now, to get there, I also have to display the same qualities that I expect from my athletes. And so one of the tasks that we would often do is sit and sit in a circle like this, and I will be the first to be critiqued, and we set this up for the first time, again, with my my assistant coach. And it was this one was a really simple task. Again, we just had to say a couple of things about what we're doing well at the moment in environment. And then one critique, you know, and that's, that's quite simple. So he had said to me, this is what I'd like to say, what do you think? I said, Okay, it's good. And I'll role model, what how I have to respond to that. And he said, he said to me, Look, the players are really enjoying the positive, they're positive environment you're creating, the training sessions have picked up immensely, and the quality and the trainings are going really well. But there is an area that you're doing that causes some concern, you have a tendency to put it an extra training sessions when players have have planned their week out, and then all of a sudden, there'll be an extra training or something put on, and that disrupts them. And so they have wives and things like that, and it disrupts their family, and then they end up copying it a couple of ways because of the, you know, they can't do something or something like that. And if you could do something to amend that, that would be really good. So my role is listening was really simple. Thank you for your feedback. You're right. You can say why you do something but you don't apologize. II can apologize for doing something but you you work very hard to rectify it. So what I would say is here, look, I do do that And the reason I do that is I'm just looking for little gains and little opportunities. And I have to stop doing that. And so for me, it's a self correction. For them, it's an art, okay, that coaching stuff, they make mistakes, they are a bit vulnerable as well, then there are a lot more open and how they talk with each other. And so you know, that's just a very simple way of learning teams how to how to do things is by role modeling them yourself.
Eric Knight 40:33
Show that fascinating and, and maybe to kind of by Shane McLeod, back to you again, on another quote, and help us unpack this one. So you've said, one of my coaching beliefs is that success is a byproduct of doing a whole lot of things. Well, if you just focus on winning and losing, it's too binary, most of the development happens between the extreme highs of winning and losing. Can you just talk us a little bit about what you're touching on there, the values that sit behind this kind of belief?
Shane Mcleod 41:04
Yeah, so how that that came about was, or how that thought was made stronger as, after winning the world cup, we actually did a tour to New Zealand, and New Zealand's beautiful country. And it's, it's my country. So you can imagine how credibly excited and proud I was going to be to be bringing the Belgium Red Lions world champions to New Zealand to play some games. And also, how incredibly proud I was of New Zealand to show edit, it's best to to the, to the team that was coming over to see them. And we'd set up a series of games and we'd flown in, we're a bit jet lagged, but like Holland, and we played up against New Zealand and not New Zealand, we played India, the first game, and we played, okay, but we lost, then the next game. And so when we go back to the hotel, the guys were complaining about everything I was staying in this hotel, it's from the 1920s, there's nothing, there's no people live in New Zealand, there's nothing to do. Look at all the sheep, they only have sheep here. Everything was negative. Three days later, we played a game and we played, we didn't play fantastic, but we played better. And we won, then all of a sudden the conversation was more all look, I found this place down the road, great coffee. After training, we can go have a swam, that's beautiful nature. And everything was was was fantastic. And then the next game was was the opposite. And so we were we were we were swinging from great to not great. And it was really binary. And we said as a coaching staff, and we do try to unpack that. And where we had gone wrong was we we hadn't explained what the process of the trip was. And where the players were confused was that they couldn't place if we were after high performance and performing every game. Or if we were after developing. And it was very much a development tool. So as a coaching staff, we knew that. And so we were riding those highs and lows. We weren't affected by it, but the players were in. So what became really important from then on was just that, taking them through each part of the journey and explaining what are we after? Where are we trying to make gains. And what we noticed that was really valuable was, the longer we were able to keep our team in development zone, the higher they were able to peek in the performance sign, you know, so rather than this up down type of response, we actually got this Development Development performance type of thing, you know, and so that that's kind of what reinforced that, that belief, you know.
Eric Knight 44:05
And can you say something about one of the techniques, I think you've used 3d playbook to help teams bring their values to life. Can you just talk a little bit about this one? Yeah,
Shane Mcleod 44:12
so So how this came about was, you know, we often stay in our hotel and we be sitting in a meeting room very similar to this meeting room. And because Aki can buy the whole hotel and just have one time you stay there, you often staying there with a whole lot of other teams, you know, the team from Germany and Holland and things like that, and you will follow them into the meeting room. So one of the things that's happened is, in the past have found an Australian playbook of founder. Attach playbook, a German playbook and an L. Welsh playbook. You don't have to worry about whales. They're not up to too much. I told that joke in a presentation one time at the end of the presentation, this worst lady came up and introduced herself saying she was from Wales. So I have to be very careful for listeners on what else. It is a joke, I haven't found a Welshman. But some really big information in there. So I sworn to myself, look, I'm not going to make a playbook that you need to expose your players to strategy and things like that. So what we did was we, we set up or made a three dimensional play book and that was a room and around the room, we would put all of our, our strategies, our, our Penley corners, all of our values and those types of things. Often the homework tasks, after I've made notes and stuff like that, I'd put them on there as well. And any of the would be also the coffee machine. So that's one of the most used pieces of equipment in the, in the whole place. Because it's a place where they always meet, I'll come in early, they'll have a coffee before training, and sit and talk have physio and things like that. But we also use that for one of the five things that I talked about earlier. And that was lifting expectation. And in the past, Belgium players, if they were going to play Holland, it was not uncommon that you would see one of our players asking them for an autograph before the game, you know, they just, they looked up to them and such admiration, and then they'd lose 10 nil. So we tried to correct that. And so we had these photos made, or they weren't made, they were taken, but we'd blow them up, and we blow them up to poster size. And there were posters of the Belgian players succeeding against Australia, Germany, and Holland, now we're surrounded, or they surrounded the walls. And so every day that we had training, the players would come in, they could see what everyone's working on, they could see our strategy, but they also have this impression, we are dominating those countries, you know, and that visual, that visual stimulus was incredible. So amazing that, you know what, there's a photo of Belgium playing against Holland, that's one of my favorite photos. And there's this cluster of players coming together in the circle, it's incredibly tight, and it's taken within 10 seconds of the final whistle in the semi final in Rio. And it's all of the Belgium players, every player that's on there was on the field. Plus, all of the players that are serving, everyone ran to this point. And why I love it, it's so symbolic of, of what we would say the circle of trust us. But the second thing that's really amazing about that picture, or why it's special is that was the first time Belgium had ever beaten Holland, you know, and not in 10 years, or 20 years, and the entire history of hockey, field hockey. But on the morning, before that game, Belgium wanted to play them. And what we put that down to was that there's that symbol alone or messaging every day that you know, you're better you are, you've got these guys. And yeah, and it was fantastic to see the confidence in which they went into that game because of what we had set up.
Paul Barnett 48:28
Shine up heard you talk about your coaching philosophy, which you summarize as, quote, the personal development well being an enjoyment of athletes and teams and quote, and it's the first part of that I want to do explore with you personal development. And I'm wondering if you could share the routines that you have to help your athletes learn and develop?
Shane Mcleod 48:53
Yeah, so we work on a bit of a premise and we did a study, and the study was kind of how many hours can we control? So how much how long are they and our, our weekly program, and it's such a small amount, like we it's 20% of the total week, we have contact with them. And that's high for an international program, we know that. So what we try to do is we try to provide the very best that we can and that 20% But there's an acknowledgement that it's the 80% that we can get the biggest benefits. And so we work very hard to to make the athlete, the center of their development. And we try and present them the tools to try and for them to to not coach themselves but to drive what they need. [PB11]
And so when a when a new athlete comes into our program, we've set up kind of like three generations we have the statements of the beat Do two or three Olympics now we have those that have been to one. And then we have new players that come in, it's kind of like a conveyor belt. And each of those groups have to bring the next lot on. And they take a lot of pride and how they do that. So what we do as a coaching staff, as we have to try and get an athlete to have some understanding of what they need. And what firstly gets them into performance state. And that can be as simple as do you perform better if you eat rice, or pasta in a pregame meal? Do you play well, if you have an evening game, if you have an afternoon sleep, or you better to you stay right through to all those type of things athletes need to become aware of, and they need to start building up routines. And if you have a good nutritional routine, if you have a good sleep routine, if you have a good game preparation type of thing and knowledge about that, then you start leading that and you start providing that for yourself. And so that's a big part of our our endeavor, is to enable athletes to take charge, and then we become a resource rather than us pulling them along. They pull us along, and we try and keep up and provide everything they need him behind. And so we found a really positive way to do it. And, and probably when players come in, we've tested how long the readiness for international hockey is. And we've got it down to between 16 and 18 months from a new, a newbie coming into being able to represent the country on a regular basis. And that's really impressive. And that's a big part is that 2080 20 type of role working very hard that they do a great job and that 20 and 80%.
Paul Barnett 52:10
Shine you I know it's getting late over there in Spain. So maybe just one last question, if I could you talk about the power of healing the story of growth, as it's happening, rather than after it's happened. It's an interesting idea. And I'm wondering if you could just tell us a little bit more about this idea and how it's experienced by the team.
Shane Mcleod 52:34
Yeah, or, or kind of, like telling stories with the players. And partly because I think it, it covers off so many things. So it lets the players have a glimpse into who you are and what you believe, and your little world, you know, and, and, you know, maybe I'm a bit too sharing with it. But I think it's important, I think that pass, that's part of that vulnerability, and that they're getting them to understand a little bit of what it brings to me to be involved with a group, you know, and so I often will tell a story, the story is designed to connect them to bring everyone to the same type of place. [PB12] [PB13]
And I'll give you an example. So that the World Cup was, which was an India, leading into that we won silver and Rio, but we hadn't won anything. And there's immense amount of pressure when you haven't won something, but it's just around the corner, everyone's expecting it. And that doesn't always help often that can hinder. And so we went, we were in India, and India is a fantastic place for for hockey, you know, the, we would drive to the hockey ground, which was like, look like a temple this up all at night. And it's golden and color and things like that. And we drive there. And when we got there, I was always first off the bus and I would jump off and they hit this corridor, and you walk through this corridor. And on the side, there's a whole lot of pictures of past winners and, and all of the highlights of previous World Cups and things like that. And, and I walked through there and I loved that it was it was really interesting. And then at the bottom there was this kind of the square and a question mark and I looked down at that. Look at the ground, look down at that. And as I walked on, I had this feeling or this thing come into my mind. Could this be us? You know, could that question mark be our next pitcher? Or could we be the pitcher in the question mark? And I thought that's a weird, weird thing to feel and stuff. And then I watched and I watched the other players come back and when you're watching a group of players and twos and threes, there's laughing and a lot of chatter and a lot of a lot of fun. And they were watching the same pictures and then they saw the square the same square that I saw and when they saw it, they fell silent. And they would walk past me and enter the changing room. And there'd be a silence and a focus as they went until I joined them. And so I thought, wow, this is, this is something that Bond's us, you know, we all have this feeling. And if we can collectively put it together, it's going to be useful. And so I told them, I told them, actually three, three stories on on the day that we played the World Cup, and they were short stories. The first was about my, my wife bringing the, our middle child to, to the crash for when I was in India. And each night, you'd ring up and say, or I'd ring in shear or either for soldering and say I had to go today. He I took him to the crash, and she cried. And I was thinking what, I'm quite glad I'm in India, because otherwise I'd be taking. And they'd happen Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday. But on Friday, when I spoke, I said how to go today. And she said, I know Emma didn't cry. But I cried. And I, I told that to the players. And I said that, you know, it's kinda like us, you know, you you needed Eastern need us all the time. But you don't need us so much anymore. You know, when you go out on the field, you've got this, you know what to do you know, what's expected, you know, all of the behavioral things, you're going to be fine. Good luck and enjoy it. And the second story I told was about our second keeper. And we had a, we were playing really well. And now semifinals against England. And the second keeper always wants to play. And we were leading the Game Six, zero with 15 minutes to go. And so I walked over to him. And I said to them, okay, are you ready? And is he looked me in the eyes and said, Well, what do you mean? I said, Well, if you want to play, you can play any, he looked back, and it was a look I've never experienced with and before we say look, you know, I would love to play, but it's not right. You know, we're about to go into the final hour, Vincent, and I'm one keeper he's playing so well. Why would we even think about making a change here. And so I shared that with the group because I thought look, there's no better symbolic way of, of representing, you know, putting the team's values in front of his own personal values. And I thought the team should understand that because they're not only caring what they're doing on the field of caring other people, and he was certainly one of them. And the last story I told him was the story of Slumdog Millionaire. And it's, it's a fantastic movie, you should see it if you haven't seen it. But the premise of it is the journey of a young boy going through the slums any he gets on this game show. And he knows because of weird turns, his life's taken, he knows all of the questions, except for the very last one. But he knows because everything is done as lead him to that point. Whatever letter he says, it's going to be right. And, again, I said, it's a bit like us, you know, everything that we've done, has led us to this point. We don't know the result yet. We all know that we're going to win. And now we just have to make sure the stars are aligned, and we go out and experience it. And we finish a game 00 But our guys were kind of cheering they kind of knew that we were going to win the shootout and and what the stories had done it it bring brought us together, but it taken away that that worry, it had been more an excitement about what we were going to do. So I think there's some power and those type of things.
Paul Barnett 59:04
Shane, it's been an absolute masterclass this evening. It's so exciting, listening to you and you have such a wonderful, quiet, understated but motivating manner and I thank you so much for agreeing to spend an hour with us and sharing the story of of your journey and the journey of your team.
Shane Mcleod 59:23
So pleasant. Enjoyed it.