Shaun Wane edit
Tue, Aug 06, 2024 6:47AM • 29:10
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
players, coaches, years, learned, sean, win, work, people, speak, change, great, england, grand finals, lesson, coaching, leadership style, meeting, improve, bit, role
SPEAKERS
Paul Barnett, Shaun wane
Paul Barnett 00:00
Sean Wayne, good morning. Your time. It's evening here. There's rain in the background, and welcome to the great coaches podcast.
Shaun wane 00:08
Thanks, Paul, thanks for having me. I appreciate it.
Paul Barnett 00:11
Sean, something simple to get us going. Can you tell us where you are in the world and what you've been up to so
Shaun wane 00:18
far today? So it's, it's nine o'clock in the morning I'm in sunny Wiggin. I do two days a week for the Warriors as a leadership and and management director. So it's been day in with them, the place. We've had a few meeting staff meetings this morning. So I'm in the chairman's office, the owner's office, at the minute, and then after this, I'll be back out to work and and doing ID meetings with the players and staff and individual development meetings with the players and staff. And today's going to be a full day
Paul Barnett 00:51
dawn. I'm racked to get a bit of your time. We're heading into the Rugby League finals here in Australia, and I was keen to get your perspective on all things rugby league and, of course, leadership when it comes to the great game. But maybe, maybe we'll just start with some of the great people that you've been involved with when I was preparing for today, I can see that you, you've had experience with Graham Lowe, Jeff Lyon, you've spent time with Gareth Southgate. I know there's many, many, many others, including, I think, in their sir, Alex Ferguson, which I'll ask you about in a minute. But from this experience meeting these great coaches up close, Sean, what is it you think the Great Ones do differently that sets them apart?
Shaun wane 01:35
Yeah, it's a good question that Paul The one common denominator, the old AV and they all, they're all very natural at it is caring, and when it's a natural, I speak to lots of coaches, and they talk about caring for players and but deep down in the riot, I'm not sure They do genuinely care. It's a bit all about them, but them coaches, you mentioned the genuinely occurring people and and I think there's two sides to care Paul, and I think there's occur inside them. I'm a family man. I've got two daughters who I absolutely adore. I love my family. I'm very driven. I work hard. If any of my players need time off with the family to get time off, but when we're in work, we're really hard. So there's that side occurring. So if a player, if a player needs to pick his kid up from school because your wife still then he gets time off and training. I'm very, very flexible. Family comes first, but there's another side occurring and and I see that as is being straight and honest. And I think everybody wants to know where they stand. They want you to be genuine and honest with them. And if you're happy, tell them you're happy. And if you're not happy with them. Tell them you're not happy, and I find that quite easy. And I have a saying about telling everybody everything all the time, and my wife gets embarrassed sometimes in a restaurant, and somebody's serving me really well. I say I'm really impressed. I will say it. So, yeah, I have that saying. So with them, three coaches, you mentioned, spending time with lots of them, the real standout coaches. They genuinely care. So they care about the individual, the current off to tell them straight where they stand, what they need to improve on and, and. And I think players appreciate that. You know, I've had players what I've got rid of when I was head coach at William and and was still the best of friends because they know I did it for the right reasons. My reasons were in the art, and that means a lot to them, for them to get that honesty.[PB1]
Paul Barnett 03:53
Sean, you talk a lot about being consistent when it comes to honest conversations. It runs through all the interviews I read about you preparing for today, but as the generations change, I'm wondering if you can ever be too honest with people.
Shaun wane 04:13
Yeah, I don't think so. I don't think so. I think players and you're absolutely correct. Things have changed over the years, and and I see with our young, some of our young players, there's a bit of a sense of entitlement, and it's our job as coaches to give them life lessons in in how to behave and what to do. And we're very strict on that with our kids at working but, but things have changed as phones or social media and, being up to date with that, and we talk about looking after each other, and I learned as much of our young players and as what they learn of me. You know, I teach, I speak a lot to our young players and tell them about experience and life lessons and being being respectful and. Are turning up on time and but I also learn a lot of them because I'm 58 they're 18 and 19, so I'm learning things off them as well. You know, it's going back to what you asked me before about about them particular coaches, Jeff Lyon, Gauss, stoke and Graham law, the other thirst for learning and and I still have that, you know, I learn every day. I didn't learn at school. I couldn't wait to leave school. I was a shocking pupil, but when I left, I've done all my learning in later life, in the 30s, 40s, still learning. Now, I'm doing a course now, two year course to be a CEO. I'd never want to be a CEO, but the learning I've done in in in that course, has been immense. So it's really important dealing with young players is listen to them. You know, learn things off them. They'll learn things off you. Every day there's a learning there.
Paul Barnett 05:57
Sean, I'm fascinated about that course, is there a couple of things that you've learned that you've taken into your role at Wigan,
Shaun wane 06:07
I'm gonna surprise you, Paul, there's the lesson that I have learned is that we do a lot of things really well. William, like a lot of I speak a lot. I'm going to New York on Saturday, speaking in New York for a few days. And when I go to these big clients, big customers, big corporate, and they've got hundreds of 1000s of people who work for them, they struggle with that honest conversation. So what I'm doing to see your course, meeting different people, I've learned a lot, but I've also learned that we do a lot of good things, that consistent, honest message driven through the fabric of the club is so important. And people see that as confrontation, you know. But the way I look at it, Paul is, if I work for you, I'd never want you to sack me. I want you to tell me if I'm if you're not happy when they'd let me know I don't like you coming late, be on time. Just tick me off. And if in six months I've not fixed it, then you're within your house to get rid of me and and you know. So that's really, really important to me, and that's what I've used every day since. And that's what these, these big organizers organizations seem to struggle with I don't see this confrontation. I see it that I want you to be truthful women so I know where I stand,[PB2]
How the
Paul Barnett 07:30
so you've got the mindset shift required to have honest conversations as you described them. Is there any other things that you think people should be doing to prepare themselves for having a more honest conversation.
Shaun wane 07:45
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I mean, it takes you a long time when I'm dealing with our younger players what you mentioned before, it takes them a long time to get used to being able to speak straight and honest to coaches. And at the end of the day, we all want the same thing. We all want to win grand finals. We want to play for England. And we all want the same thing. We're all going in the same direction. And if you have somebody in your organization what wants to go somewhere else, then let them get off the boards, let them leave and but we want people here in this organization who want. We're all we're all very, very focused on winning Grand Final, winning things. And so many can shoot with players that they can speak honestly to you, and they can sell what they want, money delivered in a well mannered way. We don't go around abusing people and swearing at people anyways, but everything's about winning our finals and being honest. And how did you train? And have you, have you done your well being in the morning and just very much into life lessons and teaching them correct ways how important it is to be on time. I respectful of this to people that you turn up on time, things like that, just general art lessons.
Paul Barnett 09:05
You had a great apprenticeship Sean, before you moved into head coaching, eight years you were doing scouting. You're doing assistant jobs, and you worked your way up. And I'm just wondering if you can cast your mind back, what do you remember surprising you the most when you took on your first head coaching role.
Shaun wane 09:23
Yeah, never assume, never, ever assume that people know, and that's a big one. And I remember the best cut player I have ever caught, Sean Auckland, and I remember going to him about some technique in contact and some, like, very detailed technique and, and I wasn't going to mention it to him, because I think he's too good. He doesn't need to know that of me, anyway, we did have a conversation about certain things and, and I could tell. By his manner, he were blown away by the level of detail I was talking about. And I actually said to him, you must have been through this before. Some coach earlier in your career must have corrected this with you. And he said, No, I've never, nobody's ever mentioned that to me before, and that was a lesson for me, that never assume that people know. So say everything, teach everything. Don't assume that players understand. Just get it. Get everything out there. So that was a one big lesson I've learned from years of coaching kids, coaching the top squad coach in England, even having conversation with England players who you know some of the best players in the world. I'd never assumed that they know things. I will tell them everything, and they can say anything to me. So that is the one main lesson. Don't assume people know. Just make sure you talk about it and discuss it and and tell them what you think, I[PB3]
Paul Barnett 11:05
think, what's, what's even more remarkable about these early years as you when you were taking on the head coaching role, is it two years later, you win the Super League grand final and the Challenge Cup two years what? What were some of the first things you did, the big pillars you put in close in place, that propelled that result.
Shaun wane 11:27
Yeah, good question. So in my first year, as I caught Mike McGuire, just left for South Sydney and and I my manager got on with him really well, and I have Graham law in my thoughts from some really good coaches over the years, and and, and I used a bit of all them, and I wasn't myself. I wasn't Sean Wayne as a coach, I'd lost my identity. And that year, we want to, we want to league leaders over here in my premiership in Australia, and over a year that's not really rated as that big of a deal. The main thing is the grand final, then the Challenge Cup. So when I won it, I remember sitting there with our only landing, and he just said to me, for the year, I think you've done okay, and that was it. And I thought, I've not been myself. I haven't been the real Sean went and if I'm going to get sacked doing this job, I need to do it my way. So I changed from that moment on, and I did think what mean things to me. So that means our standards have to improve. So we turned up on time. We keep the gym clean when we travel on on Team buzzes. They're clean when we get off. And no matter if we win or lose, we put kits in the kit bag. I don't want my kit man who's who was 80 years old. I don't want him bending and picking kit, all that sort of detail over trend rep, loads and loads of repetition, under under fatigue, and all the things which I all DLF, you know, looking after the simple things and repping the simple things and and then we went on, like said, to win a double The year after. And I don't think it was just because I changed my philosophy. It was, it was the players, you know, they did a great job and but it was very satisfying to me that, and it was a great that was another great lesson that to any coach is coach, Coach, when you're at by all means tech and ball, what? What you've learned from the coaches, but you have your own identity, and I have mine, and, and I'm very, very strict on Manish, and I plays Bev in hotels, and I do be having with the public when they're out, when they're not working with us. And, and people might say, what has tarry and the team both got to do with winning games, and it's got everything to do with winning games. I believe that anything you do is everything you do. And you know, the amount of detail I wanted on the field, you couldn't be sloppy off it. So I wanted everything perfect, and that was important to me to make sure that the players understand, understood right at the start. These are our standards. These are the why these standards are in place, and we're going to win everything. And we went on and won a double so very, very satisfying. But ever since that day, I've been myself. I've done everything for my art, and if I need to get rid of a player, if my play, if my art saying it needs to go, then it will go. And when I've gone against that is backfired on me.
Paul Barnett 14:50
Well, you had more success. You win the Super League grand final 2018, and then you went across, and you were the high performance coach at Scottish, the Scottish. National rugby union team. And I'm wondering, as you reflect back on that experience after leading Wigan, what do you remember learning most about yourself?
Shaun wane 15:11
Yeah, a lot. It was a real tough time for me, that and there's some very good people at Scottish rugby union. I still regret it every day that they didn't see the best of me. I could have delivered a lot more, but I didn't. I didn't sense they were ready for that. And I love matanda. I love Scotland. I have an ocean Scotland myself. But I learned a lot of individuals. I learned, you know, from going as the main man at wing, as the main coach, the buck stops with me. I went up the in a very like backseat role, and having to prove myself again and and that was hard. There's no doubt about that. And I don't say that in an arrogant way, but I was there one year, and then I got offered the England job and left. But I still am very frustrated that they didn't see the best of me. I feel like I could have helped more, but they didn't. They weren't feeling some of, you know, some of the senior Scottish coaches, which I understand, you know, they have their way, and they're improving as we speak, you know, so it just was, the timing was, was poor, but I still have, I still have lots of friends up there, but, you know, it was a tough year for me. Now, no question. So
Paul Barnett 16:32
Sean, then, as you say, you you get your dream job. That's how you describe it. Actually, I'll take that back. You say it's one of your dream jobs. I know there might be another one waiting for you over here somewhere, but when you stepped into that English role, how, which is, you know, overlooking a combined representative team, how did your leadership style need to change to adjust to that role?
Shaun wane 16:55
Yeah, well, my thoughts on tell everybody everything all the time. Never change throughout meetings. And I speak about what I expect when we're in camp, or you behave, or you speak to people. So I'm within a new set of players. You don't know me that well, of all the rumors about stuff, stuff about me, you know. So the need to understand what sort of block, what's important to me. But I don't have the players a lot, so I need to rein in the information what I give them players, also, from a leadership point of view, I'm I'm caught now dealing with the best players in our country, around the world, In the nrlby farmers and Elliot whiteheads and, and, you know, and they're good leaders. So it was a point of me backing off a bit from my leadership style and not imposing myself too much and seeing the best of them and, and it was so enjoyable. I really, really enjoyed dealing with them and watched their leadership styles and trying to improve them. And hopefully, you know Victor Radley, and watching him improve over the over the few weeks with us, and you know he's going to be involved in October, in October this time, he's been a great person to learn often, and so that that's been the main thing is me understanding the quality of the men I have with England now and will have the and this toggling series, and how enjoyable it is working with them, but also holding my own standards and behaviors, staying strong to them as well, You know, and making them understand that me being hard on meeting start on time. It's not a childish, vindictive thing. There's a reason behind it, you know. So it's more like starting again now, you know, trying to teach them about my ways and and then appreciating it. And if they don't like it, come tell me, and I'll explain the reasons why, and having a very open mindset with them. Players, they can say anything want to me, as long as we verbalize it in the right way. They can say anything, and I'll say anything I want to them, and it's very much open. And if I need to leave a player each other weekend, they're not going from the right place.
Paul Barnett 19:18
Sure. No, you know, we haven't met before today, but it strikes me just learning about you, there's this theme that runs through your story, and it's, it's around connection. So there's these, these two examples I found, you know, you you've got the 1972 team to send a video message to the present team. Then there's that great story at Wigan where, you know, everybody in the club had to get a club photo with each other, staff, groundsmen, accountants. You know, there was a wonderful sense of connection. And you you reference it too. When you talk about your communication style, it's from the heart. It's direct, and you're trying to connect with people. But in your own words, why is connection so. Important to you?
Shaun wane 20:02
Yeah, you have done your own muckies. I'm a major find out that information. Yeah, connection with me is really, really important. Because I think to have a successful organization, people have to feel connected. The fact is, we will not win a Grand Final this year, any of my grand finals if players didn't get paid on time. So I made sure our club accountant was on that picture. The players knew him. He knew the players were all at the end of the day in it for one thing, to win grand final. So you speak to a cleaner, our performance stadium here, and you speak to him and ask them what they do, and they just say, we win grand finals. That's what their job is. So having that connection, that when we win, we all win, everybody in the organization plays a role and and it's very important to me that the players understand what everybody does, what the cleaner does, how clean the places to enable them to never be ill and trade every day and and what the chef does and what the accountant does, and how important their role is, and because the club wouldn't function. You know, players can be selfish, and they think it's about them, and they get an interview and they get seen on TV, but unless everybody behind the scenes does their thing, you don't have success. So that that need for me to for the players to not be not arrogant. But they do. They can get carried away. Players about it's all about them, understanding that, you know, when you get when we turn up for a team barbecue and all your families there, it's not happened by accident. The people have spent hours and over preparing for that barbecue. So I need to tell the players, this is I don't like players, taking things for granted, and so having that openness that connected. We're all in it together. We're all going the same direction is so important, and it's, it's a, it's the it's, it leads to success. There's no question about that.[PB4]
Paul Barnett 22:12
Got this nice quote from you, Sean, you say, I like the stress, the pressure, the need of having to perform. You know, there's many examples of you being not a workaholic, very having a very, very strong work ethic, but as you've matured as a leader, I'm interested to hear what you've learned about the importance of rest and renewal.
Shaun wane 22:33
Yeah, that's a great question that I have learned a lot towards when I resigned from Wigan in 18 you know, I used to work on Christmas Day. All my family's around and and I would take myself off to a room, and I will clip again. I worked for two hours on Christmas day. My mindset was that there's not another coach in the country working on Christmas Day, only me. And so that was my reason for working, and when I think back now, nobody give a damn anyway, so it was pointless, but that was my mindset, just non stop work. And so no, I've left. I went. I went to Scotland. I'm now with England. I'm back with winging as a director. I do enjoy my days off. I do enjoy what four grandkids and I do purposely. I mentor matted Pete. I coach at winging and, and I said to him, you need your time off. You need to forget take your dogs out, walk with your kids, leave your phone at home and switch off and, and that's something I learned, because I did not do that when I was head coach. My phone was with me, 24 hours a day every day was a working day. If I wanted to speak to my analyst at four in the morning, I'd ring him. And when I think back now, that's shocking behaviors, and it's wrong for me to do that, but that's what worked for us. You know, I was obsessed about winning. I wanted to be world champion. Would beat canola and, you know, but the way I did, it wasn't for every staff. You know what I mean? I'm a better coach now. I'm a better person. I'm more understanding, I'm not as abrupt, I'm more I'm more caring about, you know, if I'm if I send a text to somebody and I need to know what time My meeting is. I will just say, What time am I meeting you on Thursday, whereas other people would say, Hi. Are you doing? Hope you're having a great day. What time you meeting Thursday? I can't see the point of that, but I'm trying to change and get better at communicating and just being a bit more current.
Paul Barnett 24:42
You've got a tattoo on your right heart, I think, yeah, is it say?
Shaun wane 24:48
Kazen? So when I started coaching, I had a psychologist with me called Mick Farrell, who works at Man United now, and we would speak before training. After training and over months and months and years of conversation, all my conversation, all my conversations, were the same every time we finished a drill. Did it work? How can we improve it? How can we do it better. Over travel, over coug, over weights. My mindset is, if we do everything great, Oka would do it better. So in life in general, when I was coaching, I was happy with our wins, but I will never, ever be satisfied. I'll never put the queue in the rack and think I've done, I've finished. I've done a great job. I will never, ever think that way, but I enjoy my wins. I you know, I am happy, but I'll never, ever be satisfied. So everything's about improvement, and how do we do it better? So we were finished training. We Dwayne drills in training. The first drill might be decision making, and we will come in after every training session, sit there on the staff. What did we want to achieve from that drill? Did we get it if? If we didn't, what do we need to change? If we did? Oh, can we make it better? Okay, we make it, make it more intense and a bit more challenging for the players, and we do that with everything. So that's I don't have lots of messages on the wall in the change rooms in my office. I just have a message of what really means something, and that, that message of cares and make good better is the key one, and it should be the key one for everybody in life, in business, in sport and what you do as a family man, if you do it better.[PB5]
Paul Barnett 26:51
Dawn, you've been so generous with your time. I know that you've got to get off to work. But if I could ask one final question, you you're coaching England. You are very public in your aspirations about wanting to get over here and take on, take on the best in Aussie. But let's look beyond that. Let's think about the people you touched and in the distant, distant future, when you do retire, what is it you want, these people that you've interacted with, these people that you've led? What do you want them? How do you want them to describe your legacy?
Shaun wane 27:25
Good question. I'd want. I want people to be glad they met me. I've benefited them in some way. If people are glad they've met me, and I did next, as many, many years ago with someone. And it stuck with me forever. And it was a and it was very, very deep this. But a guy said to me, write down somebody who, when you think about them, you think bad things. They make you feel bad. And it was my dad. And I think about him, and I think bad things. I think fear and being scared and panicking and and and then he went along. And the other way, I think of somebody. When you met him, when you think about them, you think good things. And I did that exercise and wrote details of why they made me feel good. And he said to me, in in 2030, years, Tom What do? What do you want your players to say about you, the players, what you coach in? And I've coached those players over the years, and I want them to say, I'm glad I met him, that he may have been better. He improved me in some way, whether it's off the field or on the field, and if a player says that, then I've done my job
Paul Barnett 28:49
pretty, pretty good. Place To finish, Sean, it's been great learning about you and your story. It's thank you so much for the hour you've spent with us today. Good luck against Tonga, with a bit of luck, maybe we'll see you over here in a couple of years.
Shaun wane 29:02
Yeah, you never know. You never know like Paul, Thanks, Sean, thanks very much. You.