Sjoerd Marijne edit
Sat, Aug 19, 2023 7:24PM • 34:25
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
coach, team, players, good, olympics, girls, india, win, talking, netherlands, match, task, listen, big, create, learn, achieve, country, knew, results
SPEAKERS
Paul Barnett, Sjoerd Marijne
Paul Barnett 00:00
Should Moran a good morning, your time. Good afternoon, my time and welcome to the great coaches podcast.
Sjoerd Marijne 00:08
Thank you, thank you for inviting me.
Paul Barnett 00:10
I'm very excited to talk a little bit of field hockey with you. We have a lot of people who play that sport in, in this country where I am today, Australia, and I'm sure they'll be very interested to hear all about the journey that you've been on. But short, something really simple to kick us off, can you just tell us where you are in the world and what you've been doing so far today?
Sjoerd Marijne 00:31
At the moment, I'm in the Netherlands. Like after India, I arrived back in the Netherlands, and now already a year and a half. And many, what I'm doing now is being an entrepreneur. So I'm co owner, owner of a few companies, few startups. And yeah, the lessons I've learned in sports I now use them in, in corporate life, like business talks. But also I have a company where we use the profiling what I have done with Indian woman to get to know yourself better, but also your teammates. And I'm also implementing that in corporate life. I have a company who has hockey schools, hockey camps, and one in Netherlands and one other company. It's with sports events, tournaments, we organize and so all kinds of things. So I still sports, but on another way as direct coaching a team.
Paul Barnett 01:26
Very interesting. I look forward to getting into all of that with you, and especially what happened in India, and the great story that unfolded there. But can we start perhaps by just reflecting on the fact that you've been coaching for the least 20 years that I can see, you've been to World Championships and all kinds of events, you've been to the Olympics, of course, and I'm sure you've seen some great coaches up close, and perhaps some coaches that aren't so great. But I wanted to ask you, when you think about the great coaches that you've seen, the ones that you've been up close next to? What do you think they do differently that sets them apart?
Sjoerd Marijne 02:04
Yeah, I think the first thing all the good coaches, the great coach, and my watching a lot of two other coaches is really strong vision for the long term, and they really stick to their plan no matter what. So that's where it for me always starts. And the second thing is, they are authentic. They are, they are who they are, they don't want to be someone else. They don't want to pretend to be someone else, they are really authentic. And the third thing is they make players and staff better. So not only the players, but also the people around them, and they reach their potential. And they do that by building real personal relationships. And I think those three things and, of course, much more things. But those three are always important for me. [PB1]
And I think a strong leader always has a vision, and not a short vision. But where do you want to go? So I knew when I go when I went to India, and I went to the limb of I arrived in 2017. I knew exactly how I wanted to see the team three, four years later. And I think that is something what really helps you as a coach, but also helps the team that you know, okay, how are we going to reach our goals?
Paul Barnett 03:19
Should you also a player long before you became a coach, in fact, you won the Dutch championships twice as a player was coaching something that you were thinking about back then?
Sjoerd Marijne 03:32
Yeah, I was coaching since I was 16. already. And I always enjoy it. And that was with youth. That's where you have to learn it in my opinion. And I started to think about okay, what do I want to do in the in the future? And the moment I realized, I'm not good enough as a player to reach the Olympics, I want to do it as a coach. And from there on, I really was very ambitious, to reach that Olympics because yeah, as a player, it's it was like, you still believe as a young player, or I can make it I can make it but that moment, there's a moment you realize. I'm not good enough. Yes, I have two championships titles. But it was also because I had really good players around me. And I knew very well okay, what is my task? And I was very task driven. But to reach that Olympic level, yeah, it was not, I was just not capable of that. And that was a month like okay, I now want to do everything to reach that Olympics because that was a big dream of me. How can I reach that? But then as a coach, then from there on the big dream, I thought, okay, how do I want to reach that moment? What do I want to reach because that's very, very far away. And from there on again, you work in small steps. But sometimes I knew in that process, I was pushing myself so much because I really wanted to achieve that. And then as coach then I also started become frustrated because it isn't, I don't have a lot of patience. and it didn't go fast enough. And that's what I felt like, okay, should you need to do a step back? And from that moment, things turned around[PB2]
Paul Barnett 05:08
when you took that step back, was that around the time that you were coaching the Dutch women in 2014? Because I've read that it was then that you realized that there was some stuff you needed to change if you're going to chase that vision.
Sjoerd Marijne 05:21
Yeah, there was a very difficult moment in my career, it was 2014 2015. And I got fired from the Dutch by the Dutch Federation. And on that moment, for me, it was really important, okay, I can do two things. One, I can blame all the others, that it was not fair that I got fired. And all I can come up with all kinds of reasons. Or the second thing, I started watching myself, and I did the second thing, and I watched myself, okay, what can I do different? Because I don't want to be in that situation anymore. So what do I need to change. So watching myself in the mirror, Okay, shoot. So I went to China for two months. And I already made a big mind change. And one of the things was, if I have a plan, I stick to the plan. And nobody interferes, and don't allow it anymore. And that's what I did with the Dutch Federation. And that's fine. But it's, I had to blame myself that I allowed this. And that's why I thought and that really helped me to make the next step in, in my coaching career, sometimes you need to do one step back to make to further and it's not nice to get fired. But I didn't want that it was without reason, it had to help me for making new steps.[PB3]
Paul Barnett 06:38
Or those new steps took you to India, which of course is the central part of this amazing journey you've been on and the Indian Women's team in 2016, they went to the Olympics, they hadn't qualified for 36 years. So that was a great achievement, but they didn't win a game you took you took over in 2017. You take them to Tokyo when you're 21. And they play off a bronze. And they actually narrowly miss out the bronze medal, which was a great achievement. But if you go back and you think about it, what were the first things you did when you took over, that really drove and fueled that improved performance?
Sjoerd Marijne 07:17
Yeah, first I made up the initial situation, I look to the qualities which are available. And from there, we started to set an objective together and indicated the consequences of the objective. And that is a really important thing. It's the difference between saying and doing. And if the difference is really small, you have a big chance of success. And this, this journey goes up and down with bumps. And sometimes they think like, oh, do will we ever make it? Yeah, but then you always search the positive things. And what really helped us is like, okay, with the vision, we know how we want to be at the Olympics. And from there we work backwards. Okay, what is necessary, so we need to have the fitness has to be improved. And that is what we set out right? What I said, almost every day against the girls, listen, if you want to achieve that goal, the consequences, the fitness has to be better, or you have to eat healthy food, all these kinds of things. And that's how it works for me in sports. I constantly come from consult my players with what are the consequences? What kind of behavior do we want to see. And I think that is what I've done the last four and a half years when I arrived in India, or when I arrived in India constantly what kind of behavior suits our goals. And then you make really, and from there run the big goal at the Olympics, we make small goals and the small goals. I really make them like, okay, that I knew we can reach them. And it's not about results, but about behavior. And because we make those small goals, they get more confidence. And every time that small steps, the confidence grows and grows and grows. So slowly, the girls also started to feel like hey, we really can believe something. Because like, I can tell them over and over and over as a coach. But at the end they have to feel it. [PB4]
And I think the World Cup 2090 19 No, no sorry. 2018 in England was a good example. I had a psychologist with a team and she said shoot you have to tell the girls, we really can win a medal. So listen, I'm from the Netherlands and the Netherlands. We are really down to earth. You don't say these big things. If you don't really believe you can make it and says should keep saying that. So I told the girls Listen, we're gonna be become world champion. We're gonna go for a metal and say yes sir. Yes sir. And they follow Me. And what happened? We played the quarterfinal against Ireland's now we lost in shootouts, but if we won that match, we would have played Spain. And the thing is they it was new for them in that situation because they Ain't never played that quarterfinal. But they were also thinking like, a few weeks ago, we have practice magic in Spain, and we won them. So if we win this quarterfinal, we can also win the semi final because that was our next opponent. And then they were very close. So they start feeling but then they became the start to dream too big. And they were not there with the mind with the match islands. And then we lost them eventually. But what the good thing what happened there is they start really believe, yes, we really can achieve something. But that was a process of yours. And that's what I wanted. What I mean to say is small, small, small steps. The confidence starts building up. And then the big step at the end that year at the Olympics. So yeah, I must say this was a very delicate process. And very fascinating and interesting. But the good thing with the girls is if they really believe you, and they follow you, and it doesn't matter if I say the wall behind me is white, and I told them, Listen, it's black. They say Yes, sir. And sometimes it's good. Sometimes it's not good, because at the end, when we will speak later, maybe about this. It's also about making their own decisions.
Paul Barnett 11:15
That was my next question, actually decisions because I have this interesting quote from you. I'd like to read it to you before I ask the question, you say, when you involve players in the thinking process, they will get more tactical awareness and learn faster. This is scientifically proven, because they have to learn to take decisions inside the pitch. Now, surely, if someone was listening, and they wanted their team to be able to make better decisions, what would you tell them to do first?
Sjoerd Marijne 11:46
Yeah, the first thing I what I would say is just start asking questions to your players, and let them think instead of telling them what to do, I think that is the main the main thing. And that's how we, for instance, in Netherlands, raised our children on the sports fields. And I think that is, I think that's important, because then the thinking process starts. And it's not only with the coach who's handing over all the information. And this is not easy when you don't speak the same language. So in the beginning, I had to talk more than they did, because but eventually, they're when their English became better. I implemented this and also allowed them to do their own meetings, and an eye. And you have to be patients for this F patients for this, because sometimes it takes longer. And my girls were really shy in the beginning. And also really shy about talking English. Because before me sometimes when someone spoke English, they were laughing, and I and these kinds of things, I have to make a really safe environment. And no laughing will be done. If someone speaks English, even it's very poor. And I think that is important in in a team.[PB5]
Paul Barnett 12:59
Well, the team, obviously, gelled quickly, because you had some early success, as you talked about, you know, the, the Indian team take the silver medal that the women's Asian Champions Trophy and the Asian Games in Jakarta, they also get the silver. But what's really interesting is you get to Tokyo, and the team loses its first three group matches. So was there something in the way that you responded to those losses that help the team rally and get into the knockout stages?
Sjoerd Marijne 13:29
Yeah, of course, we did our planning before the Olympics show, we knew exactly the first three Hi, guys, wrong rank countries, we would have them the first three matches, and then we would have Ireland and South Africa. And if we were a little bit lucky, then winning match four and five could bring us into quarters. But so what I was busy was constantly budget performance. I was not talking about results. Every match, we have to grow. You have to realize we hardly played matches in the COVID time, we couldn't travel. And luckily Kenya did really well. We are we headed to Argentina and want to Germany in those difficult times. So I was really happy. But between that time and you'll impish I was I think four or five months we didn't play a match. So I use those three first matches to grow and to grow and to gain confidence. But the last Michigan's GB was not not good at all. And they were doing strange things. And it felt to me like okay, this is a team. I started four and a half years ago, I became very, very angry at them and say listen, you don't realize at this moment. It's not just being here at the Olympics, but it's also getting result. And you are now at the moment you can get that result but you have to act different. So I said make up a team plan against islands. And I walked away from that meeting. And of course they were like please coach come back. And then I had my assistant Janet short months she was in between that process between The players and between me and she was like Choo, choo, what are we doing? I just leave them. And I don't care. But more or less I was created in a situation, they have to stand up and they have to take responsibility. And from there on I then of course, I came back to them said, Listen, what is the plan, and how we're going to play against islands. And they came up a plan the same as I did. Because we knew each other, they know what I want to do how I want to play against islands as a really well. And then I showed them a clip from a movie. And in that clip shows being in the moment momentum. So where are you you are here you are at your Olympics, and you're busy, which are task. So from there on, they were more busy with focusing on their task, then be busy with the outcome. And that's why we played a really good match against Ireland, the complete mindset was different. Yeah, just because the whole result part was gone from their heads. And afterwards, I felt like okay, they are busy against GB with, okay, if we can win this match and Ireland, we will make sure we've got to make the quarterfinals. But on that way, you're thinking about what I already said mentioned a few times the outcome, but also about results. And thinking about results will create absolutely pressure in your mind. And that's what you want to avoid, especially at the Olympics. So they were more like, Okay, what I created that moment was okay, we are back with our feet on Earth. My task is against Ireland, this, this and this. That's what I need to do. And then the at the end, we will see the outcome. And that's the same what we did against South Africa and against Australia. So that was a big turnaround moment for us.
Paul Barnett 16:45
Well, it sounds like being in the moment. And empowerment. Are the two big pillars which you built the Indian foundation? Where did your focus on these two elements come from? What was the change that triggered this awareness of the importance of those two areas?
Sjoerd Marijne 17:06
Yeah, it's the things that I work with the circle of with the circle of attention. So it means you have five circles or six circles and circle one says me and my task. Circle two is unbusy. With me with my environment with a referee with a weather circle three is a comparison with results. So if I miss the stroke, I will, we will not win. If I make the stroke, I'm the hero of the country. But if you think about these things you think not about your task. So if you do a track flick, you want to think about, okay, I have to go with my left foot to the ball, I have to go low with my left hands. Because then the end, the outcome will be good. Focusing on these things that will make the difference. And that's why, for instance, not all fader, they're not just good tennis players. Their mindset is always about what is my task so many times, I don't think that Nadal will ever blame the opponent. When he lost the match. The watch always interviews back, it's always about himself. And that's what he can control. And that's what I'm kept telling the girls, what can you control that you're involved in the game of taking responsibility? That's where you're, you make energy for the team. So at one strike, she was always busy with, okay, I need to score I need scores, you know, no, you need to be the energy maker of the team. And when you give energy, and you on the right positions, goals will come up. And eventually she scored the most goals after the Olympics for India. So that's the way they will get worse.[PB6]
Paul Barnett 18:46
I mean, this Indian result was so powerful to a nation that is so desperate for more Olympic medals. You know, they don't I haven't got at my fingertips, how many they've won in history, but it's quite a surprisingly low number. What do you hope is the impact going forward of the team's performance from this Olympics?
Sjoerd Marijne 19:07
Not the confidence or what now what I hope is that we inspired so many young kids, girls, boys doesn't matter about what you can achieve, and that it's good to dream and dreams can come out. I think that is one of the main things. And besides this, our big goal for the Olympics was to create a better position for the woman. I don't know if that's happened. I see a lot of from the girls who have much more followers on social media. So their, their reach is much more bigger. And I think those things are very good. And that's what we want to achieve. And that's also the legacy from the team from this Olympics. You can achieve everything you want, but you have to work for it. You have to be in hockey, you have to be a team. And I think that is something what for us was the most important thing and the metal was a way to achieve that. But at the NGC and my wife was the one, we inspired 1.51 point 4 billion people. But we didn't win a medal. And I think we created something bigger. And it is a nice story about girls who achieved something, and not winning, but actually won something much bigger. And that's the hearts of the Indians. And my wife said, we lost that match against Argentina. She said, Should I know your disappointment? You want something bigger? And that's the heart. And I think that something bigger is, isn't there.
Paul Barnett 20:38
You talk about you said at the start of the interview, that you're working with corporate environments now and you're doing some training and some keynote speaking, and I'm wondering how this message of empowerment resonates with your audience. Because what you did is quite brave. I'm not sure whether there'd be many people listening that would think, wow, to walk away from the team and give them the responsibility to come up with the response is quite a brave thing to do. But when you talk to corporate environments about empowerment, how do you frame that message to them?
Sjoerd Marijne 21:10
Yeah, like a CEO, she Oh really has to give has to be clear in his vision. And from there one, you have your culture, gosh, your culture gods are for me, for instance, my captain's with the leadership group, it's one group. So I make around three groups in my teams every time and you have to be able to grow to the next group. But as a leader, I need to as a CEO, I need to spread my vision, my my, my, my management team must take over and spread that vision to the rest of the company. And then it's very important, they are the culture guys. So an example from the team Xiaomi, one of the young players play the tournament with under 20 ones in my time. And she explained to the girls from the under 20 ones, how it is what you need to do to come in the national team. And she also said some of the girls came too late to the meeting says this is not allowed. So what happened, she became my culture, God instead of time doing it. So in the beginning, I was the culture guys, I really want to create that high performance culture, what is allowed what is not allowed. So I'm the police officer. And eventually you want that inside your team inside your company. You create a culture guys who take over from you who are taking responsibility, responsibility to take decisions. And that process evolves, every time you've ever every time a new culture, God's people need to be grow to the next step. [PB7]
And sometimes you have people in your team in your company, they are good at what they are doing. Like me, I was a player, and I have to give the ball to your room domain. And that what and now I can say I began twice champion of Netherlands, I defend really well. But I knew this is my task. I was really task driven. You need also people in your team in your corporate in that. But you also need people who wants to grow to the next group. And if they don't, yeah, you have to sometimes tell them. Okay, I go for the next one. And as a CEO, you constantly are raising the bar. Yeah, what is the benchmark. And that is what I did with the girls. So every time for instance, Ronnie is a defender of a striker. And she was not that good in the beginning of when I came as a defender, as an as a striker and needs to defend. Also, it's the first line. And she's not used to go low with her left hand. And I told her listen, I want you to go a little bit lower with your left hand. So it was like this. And I showed her the clip. And it's a really good Irani. And she said, yeah, thank you. I'm very proud of it. It's going what much better? I say absolutely. So she had a lot of confidence. And then I ended this, I'm sure you also can go a little bit more level. So it was positive. But on the other thing, I already gave her a new task. So every time I was putting that bar higher and higher, but if I would say no, no, Ronnie, it is not good enough, your left hand has to be completely on the ground, I would lost the relationship with running. And I take too far outside the comfort zone.
And that is a task from a leader and from the CEO. How far do you take someone outside outside their comfort zone. And that is the process I've been doing for and all of yours, individual and esteem and I personally believe in individual way that really helps building a team. If every individual becomes better, the team becomes better. That's also I believe in corporates.
How That's what one of the things what I did with the team is profiling all the players. And as mentioned, that's what a company now I've created is also like, on what way can I get the best out of people, but I need to know them. But they also need to dope themselves. So we did profiling. And then we found out not need is a strategic person, she was the only one in the team. So that means she understands the tactics. Yeah. And I informed her in the whole tactical plan. And then she was spreading the words in amongst the team, because I knew that was their quality. And because she liked it, because she knew she was good at it. Her confidence was growing and growing. And other players came to her not only can you explain me, on the technical side, how we have to improve this, or what must I do in this situation. So inside during the Olympics in the match, he says, Coach, we need to play another way of pressing, we had three or four systems as a kind of need to tell the story to tell the team. So I gave her completely responsibility, because I knew she was good at that. So it works on many ways. And that's why it's important for me get to know your people. Yeah. But also under stress, how do they act? During the Olympic qualifier in Bhubaneshwar, that we won the first match with five one and the second match, we were for zero down in 30 minutes. And a lot of girls says no, I don't want to take responsibility. I'm just watching someone else. But you need to know as a coach, as a leader who's taking responsibility on the difficult moments. And that's why that really helped us but also by identifying each other's strengths. So the team knew about nerf knees. But the team also knew about Ronnie, she wants to be an inspiration for other ones, Vandana she likes to work for the team now on these things. So we brought that together. And then we were talking more about strengths, then about weaknesses. And that also builds up the confidence from the individual but also from the team. And that's more or less how we how we, how I have done this. And I'm sorry, I'm saying I bet we as a staff have done this.
Paul Barnett 27:10
It's fascinating. How did you go about what's interesting in that answer you just gave was the way that the players knew about each other's almost their psychological makeup, or definitely their probe behavioral profile? How did you go about the process of sharing that information across the team so that they could understand each other in a more holistic or deeper level?
Sjoerd Marijne 27:33
Yeah, of course, everybody gets his own information. And then it's about them to what what do they want to share? And in my individual meetings with the players, I could talk freely about these things, of course, and said, Okay, listen, these are your strengths. Do you recognize them? Yes, I do recognize them say, okay, how can we use them in the team? And what I did slowly is okay. It goes you've seen of neat is understanding the structure. What do you think about we have we let her help. We let we let her help you have you can go to her with help. So that way on a natural way, it starts at a no more from each other. Instead of that, I say, okay, here is the report of Nef needs.
Paul Barnett 28:16
Was there should was there a time where you pushed someone, perhaps too far. And you had to pause and almost redefine that line of how much you could challenge them?
Sjoerd Marijne 28:34
Yeah, like, it's too easy for me to say no. Because what I said you always watch first yourself and maybe I did but difficult thing is with the girls in India, they don't give the feedback. Listen, Coach, you went now too far? Yeah. On what way can I also see it? It's, for instance, that someone was underperforming. And often also that that happens, and not every player, I didn't reach every player's potential. So it's it's a very thin line with coaching, how far can you go? And I, I strongly believe the body and the mind can do more than you think. But they have to experience this. And that's also what they have done. And then you can see they can do much more. And that's what I wanted to show them that experience them.[PB8]
Paul Barnett 29:26
So you're now back in the Netherlands, you've got the corporate business and of course recently you were coaching the men's team in Tilburg. India is an amazing place to visit. I've been fortunate enough to go there a couple of times. I think it changes you. And you've had this amazing experience of immersing yourself in the country, taking them to the Olympics and I'm wondering how has it changed you as a leader? Now today?
Sjoerd Marijne 29:54
Yeah, I have been gone more calm as a coach of the situation I've been for the last four and a half hours. Fears, so many struggles. And you do realize even more what you are what you have. So if plays communicate with each other, I do realize that some benefits. So when I was coaching Tilburg, last year, and they went from the locker room to the pitch, they were telling each other, okay, the weather is, it's nice weather. I had some studies yesterday. And these, these small things really helped me. Okay, I know I have more information about the players. And I know how they feel. When the girls always walked through the page. I didn't know anything, what they were saying to each other. Now, because I still don't speak Hindi. And someone told me once, shoot, you need to learn Hindi. But there are 200 different languages in India. So where to start. And of course, I knew some hockey words. But you realize more now what you have instead of what you don't have. And that's especially when you are, have been as a European in a country like like India.
And the other thing what I also and it's also becoming older as a coach, like the good thing about coaching, I think if you review a review yourself a lot, you become better. The older you get, yeah, because if I see, watch myself back as a young coach, I think, oh shoot so many mistakes, you have to learn so much things. And I see now young coach, young coaches make the same mistakes. But it's normal, it's a process. And I know she had besides the patience, I'm also building more in the relations with the players. In the past, I was talking always about tactics, technical things, to solve problems. And now I'm more talking with plays to resolve the problem.[PB9]
Paul Barnett 31:40
Fascinating. I think India has that impact on a lot of us, when we go there, you need to be patient, and you need to learn to go with the flow and let it take you where it takes you. Sure. Just to finish, I'd like to just play back a quote to you, you talked a little bit about it earlier about changing my creating potential for young young people and so forth. But I'd like to read this quote, before asking the question, you say, I'm proud to be part of that, because that's what I always dreamed of. I never dreamed about winning medals. Never dreamed about what people say about awards and about money, only dreamed about one thing. And that is doing something that nobody has done before. And creating a legacy that you will be always remembered for. It's a pretty big dream. You got pretty close with that Indian team. But I'm wondering, I know that you've got many years left in coaching, and particularly in leadership. What do you think your legacy is so far?
Sjoerd Marijne 32:40
Yeah, what I hope they will say he gave everything to let the girls shine, and that we inspire people to reach their potential. And that is what, what I hope.
Paul Barnett 32:54
Well, can I challenge you on that? Yeah, of course. Having experienced the, you know, very hierarchical nature of India, I think your approach to empowerment is actually quite game changing. And I think it's going to create another generation of coaches that are going to take a very different approach to not only sport but also to leadership.
Sjoerd Marijne 33:17
Thank you very much. I was talking about a movie and the movie is the Peaceful Warrior. Do you know it? I do. It's it was for us. It did changing moment at the Olympics. And from there we were in the moment. That's what I did. I got pieces from the movie. We didn't watch the whole movie, small parts. And yeah, you have to find discover the yourself your empire in the small parts. But you will you will know as a coach, what can make the difference?
Paul Barnett 34:00
Shared it's been great talking to you. I'm glad we could finally connect. It's a wonderful story in a really amazing, fantastic country. And I wish you all the best the startups and the new businesses. I'll put all the links to those in the show notes so that if people want to contact you and hear more, they know where to catch you.
Sjoerd Marijne 34:19
Thank you very much. Well thank you for your invitation and nice chatting with you