Stuart Lancaster Edit
Sun, 9/12 3:45PM • 30:11
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
coach, players, team, game, play, england, rugby, long, principles, challenged, leadership, good, leeds, organization, beer, managerial, creates, thought, world cup, preparing
SPEAKERS
Stuart Lancaster, Paul Barnett
Paul Barnett 00:00
Stuart Lancaster Good evening and welcome to the Great coach's podcast.
Stuart Lancaster 00:03
Thank you. Thanks for the invite.
Paul Barnett 00:05
Thanks very much looking forward to chatting to you tonight about all things rugby because of course it's on at the minute and it's very exciting seeing the Argentinian team turn the tables on the Aussies and the kiwi so very keen to get your perspective on that as well as we go along.
Stuart Lancaster 00:19
Yeah, happy to get my point of view.
Paul Barnett 00:21
Well, just an easy question to kick us off actually, where I in the world and what have you been up to today?
Stuart Lancaster 00:26
So I'm currently in my flat in Dublin. Today is the day after we played Cardiff in the pro 14 round seven which we had a good win Cardiff very good team actually but we got on top of them the ends we won 40 points to five so today has been into the office very much reviewing the card performance preparing for tomorrow, which is the players and back in go through the review. I've been preparing the preview of Scarlets, so we play them I learned the Scarlets play them this Sunday. So doing that, and at the same time, generally reviewing the weekends rugby so obviously Ireland played England, Argentina, Australia. So it's been a day of watching rugby, clipping things up, preparing meetings, thinking about selection, chatting with Leo, ready to go tomorrow.
Paul Barnett 01:09
Crikey, I feel almost embarrassed having asked you to talk to us on this podcast. Thank you so much for carving out some stuff. I'll try to make the questions interesting for you. So I wanted to start by just reflecting on your very long career all the way back to some B's Wakefield, Scotland, professional at Leeds and then coaching England, senior and junior teams, you must have seen so many good coaches and probably not so good coaches along the way. So I wanted to ask you, first up, what is it you think that the great coaches do differently?
Stuart Lancaster 01:40
Yeah, I mean, fortunately, a lot more good than than bad. That's for sure. Very lucky that you know, my first coach, really at schools, a guy called Tony Robbins, who came in my sixth form, he really inspired us all, we're a very good team for a very small school, actually, he definitely harnessed our talent and policy in the right direction. One of the really important qualities in a coach, which was inspiration and motivation, he was definitely directive, but it was probably what we needed at the time, he was technically good. He certainly motivated us. So there are so many qualities in the first coach I've ever had. And then if I go through my career, I think the ones that are really connected with the ones who really inspired me, and I guess I learned the most from the ones who are forward thinking to Brian Ashton would be an example. Former England coach, you know, he was always for me. ahead of the game, he was clear in his philosophy, we had an ambitious mindset about the way the game should be played, played by everyone. And then I've coached to, I guess, every level of the game. So my son's team started coaching my daughter's team when there was under sixes. So if you can't back to him all the way through to national team provincial team, I coached at school for six or seven years to university level, coached International, 18, international, eighth grade teams, county eighth grade teams, I think the best coaches who I've seen in all those areas capacity to pick the right tool out the box at the right time, the right coaching style, or fitness coaches, we think are more one style than another. But I think the great coaches have the ability to pick a collision club out the bag at the right time, like a great goal forward. Sometimes you're visionary. Sometimes you're empowering, sometimes you're democratic. Sometimes you're creating a close bond with the group. And sometimes you're coaching them yourself. You're trying to grow leadership, but it's just picking the right tool at the right time. That alongside technical excellence, alongside integrity, and probably a good dose of honesty as well.[PB1]
Paul Barnett 03:31
Sounds like great ingredients to bake a cake. In preparing for the session, I've sat through a wonderful online seminar you gave with some other amazing coaches, Jim Gavin and Liz Fallon. But one of the things I did some research on, I was following up from that session and found this great quote from you. And you said, is the coach principled? Or are they a principal? And I wanted to ask you, could you just explain that quote a little bit more to us and what it means to you in a coaching context,
Stuart Lancaster 03:57
the thing old operate on coaching principles. So if we take the organization of our game plan, it's not a specific directive game plan where they have to do what I say. But there are certain parameters and certain principles that which we would defend by attack by build our counter attack structure on work on our transition. And then within the framework and the principles that we set we expect the players to, to make decisions, which are ultimately I think, influenced by the way in which we train so I'd be a big john wooden fun, and his philosophy on coaching and leadership as a basketball coach will be someone that will resonate with me. And I firmly believe that the principles that we set out and that we exhibit in our performances, a direct correlation to how we we practice and how we train, so a principle based team without being too rigid. [PB2] That makes sense.
Paul Barnett 04:49
No, it does. And it's interesting how you took this approach to England and you were credited with overhauling the culture when you got into that team and I wanted to ask you, what was some of the things you did first, when you were rebuilding the culture within that organization?
Stuart Lancaster 05:04
Well, I think the first thing was you go back to 2011 2012. So I got the job, the interim job in November 2011, after the World Cup, he will often talk about overhauling the culture of the team. But also, we needed to come up with a specific style of play. And obviously, it took a while to embed in but I'd like to think of the course of the four years I was there, you know, we developed an attacking based style of rugby that resulted in, I think we've got the most tries, every six nations, we didn't win, unfortunately. But in terms of our attacking mindset, I thought that developed alongside the evolution of the team in terms of experience, so that you're watching the game this weekend and watching Indian play Ireland, obviously, with a good knowledge of both sets of players, having coached both sets of players. And I'm looking at the England team with 800 odd cups in this weekend and out of the 400. And when I first started, it was 200 cups in the whole starting team. So the first sort of decision was to try and build a young team and develop it towards 2015, but also way beyond 2015. So the team would, would stay together over an extended period of time. And, you know, here we are now, what, eight years later, and pretty much the same group of players, albeit there's some younger lads, if they've just come through, have created a fantastic evening team that now runs a better world cup and have just won the Six Nations again. So the evolution of everything really, it was evolution of the strategy, the playing style, the age, age of the squad, and also trying to change the culture just to young a younger group of players.[PB3] So yeah, there's nothing I always felt it was wrong. The fact that the 2011 team were portrayed in the way the word because there was a lot of great players and good people in that organization. And I think over 50% of that team were over 30 got that will cut but it needed a transition to take place. And I guess I made the decision because I the interim job and nothing to lose. We'll do the transition in one go. Whereas look at say, Ireland, Ronnie Pharrell, now he's having to transition out a Rory best, or Rob Carney, one or two players to transition out and younger players coming in? Well, I think we decided to do it in one go, which was tough. It was challenging. But ultimately, I think it's benefited England in the long run.
Paul Barnett 07:07
I think what you did when you reignited the passion by bringing Was it the letters from the players, families? Yeah.
Stuart Lancaster 07:13
Lots of little things, I think. Yeah, I'm not talking about that. I guess I'll just to explain it to the listeners. I think a lot of the way in which we tried to reconnect with the grassroots will be fun, it is genuine. It's where I'd come from. And I think even taking the camp to Leeds to a Yorkshire to club and trading there definitely had a connection piece associated with it. I wrote to the parents, as you say, of the players and asked them to write back and say, what does it mean to see his son play for England? And can you ask five people have helped that play become the being a player that is, and without the players knowing you've got these amazing messages coming back from grandparents or brothers or sisters or primary school teachers or whoever, you put all five together on certificates, and it's very powerful. I think it made the players realize that it is a real privilege to play every country and it's actually less about you. It's more about what it means to other people. And I think so that family piece was really important.[PB4] But also, the connection with the grassroots fam definitely had an impact because when we used to arrive at Twickenham an hour and a half for kickoff, it was absolutely rammed and there were people cheering the team and a genuine sense of connection between the country and the team and you can feel Twickenham, I felt changed during those three or four years, to wearing the white shirt with pride and what it means to be English and really passionately getting behind the team. I could really sense that it wasn't just obviously down to me, it was down to a whole variety of things down to the players. It was down to the assistant coaches, it was down to the commercial team, it was down to the marketing team, it was down to the sponsors, we all pretty much embraced the same philosophy and theme as it gathered momentum using I guess the media as well as part of the the tool to develop it. That's very powerful. I remember playing Wales in 2013, we'd won four and we want to win the grand slam and championship. And when we played that didn't feel as good as playing against 15 plays, it felt like we were playing against the nation. That's what I wanted Twickenham to feel like and that's what I think happened. And that was why I switch so devastating to have got that connection piece so moving in the right direction for it's not to achieve what we wanted to achieve in the World Cup in 2015. I think the momentum that was generated in that period has been maintained and you can still see it
Paul Barnett 09:20
now for sure. I was reading recently the one of the books that really connected with you was the Simon Sinek book actually start with y which is a quite a prominent business text these days, but I wanted to ask you how did the why of coaching change for you after you left England job?
Stuart Lancaster 09:37
I guess it never changed if I'm being honest, probably if I was to divide my role into leadership coaching and management during my time, both as a PE teacher, ah road coach Academy coach Leeds coach England Saxons coach, whatever the proportions of all is varied in terms of how much actually physical and technical coaching I'm doing, how much managerial stuff I'm doing and How much leadership I'm doing. And I always try and divide it into sort of percentages, I guess. I think we're all back now. And, uh, compared to the role I'm doing at lensa. So if I talk about my role now lynnster, it's, my title is senior coach, and genuinely I'd be 70 to 80% of my time is absolutely devoted to coaching. So how can I coach better? What's the next session? What's the game plan? How can I get the best out of the group I've got and then alongside that, it's there's a strong element of leadership as well in pointing the direction, reviewing failure when we lose learning from mistakes, creating a vision for where we can go in the future, very little managerial work because Leo Cohen, who's the effectively director, rubes, he does an amazing job in managing the dynamic between Ireland and lynnster, the Academy, the 18, games, the board, the media, the commercial partners, he will do all that alongside guests, because the general manager which frees me up to coach a lot more, if I go back to the England job, I showed leadership managerial responsibility and delegated a lot of the coaching. So one of the things I thought a lot about after the World Cup was, and it was actually brought home to me with a conversation I had with Jim Collins, who wrote the book Good to Great and actually met him. Amazingly, actually, in Denver in 2015. We were on there for the World Cup training camp and read his book, and I realized he was based in Boulder, Colorado. So out of the blue, I thought, well, I'll take a punt and send an email to his office, which is down the road from the hotel anyway, amazingly, his assistant came back said, No, no, Jim's got an hour free tomorrow afternoon, you can pop in. So I popped in and met him. And we got chatting about leadership. And he then invited all his staff into the meeting. And we'll end up with three our brainstorming session on leadership, which was amazing, really. Anyway, he followed my sort of career and he sent me a note after World Cup, he said, Oh, we must reconnect. So we arranged a zoom call. And he went on to tell me the story of how he mentored Steve Jobs. He said, he told me the story that he'd been sacked by Apple. And 12 years later, he'd gone back in it in become, you know, CEO of Apple and created Apple, you know, what we know now? And I said to him, I said, Yeah, but what did you do in those 12 years secretly hoping I was gonna be 12 years out of a job? And he said, he actually went away and thought about what is his passion, and he reconnected with his passion. And I think what I thought a lot about in that period was, what's my reason? Why what do I really enjoy what my first love was teaching and coaching. So let's try and find a role where I'm actually physically teaching and coaching. I know I could do the managerial stuff. And I know the other stuff I can do as well. But what I really want to do, because I put myself worked hard for four years, and ultimately, we never got what we wanted and put my family in a lot of pressure. So that's why the lenstra role was almost the perfect role because it combined that passion of coaching with leadership and then deleted the managerial stuff[PB5] . Leah does. Brilliant.
Paul Barnett 12:34
I want to talk about Lannister if I could I just like to talk about that study trip he did. Because in 2016, you hit off around the world, and you get to spend time with the Atlanta Falcons, British cycling the English FA rugby in New Zealand. I mean, it's a it's an amazing experience. And what did you take all learn most from meeting all of those great organizations. Now, it's probably an impossibly trite question, but I'm really interested to see what you took away from it what you remember now?
Stuart Lancaster 13:03
Well, I'll try and give you a quick snapshot on each one which might help the coaches out there and I've learned Balkans obviously been an American football giant at the time. I mean, they they got to the Super Bowl, it's the second year I was there final, the size of the the culture and the organization's the number of players that Dan Quinn as the head coach had to had to deal with the complexity of the sport, probably something that really surprised me was how directive it was as a coaching style, very little interaction, or very little two way conversation between players and coaches. And I think Dan was doing his best to to improve that dynamic to make sure it was more player centered organization. I think they were head on analysis and things like how they prepare for meetings, the work they did, the detail that went into place and everything else. So and it was just a fascinating couple of weeks, obviously, particularly because I was trying to advise them on how to improve their defense coaching. So British cycling was a different there was a review of the culture of recycling and I was invited on to the panel to review British cycling in 2016. So that was that wasn't just a one stop visit. That was a extended period of interviews. And a good example of I guess how when a couple of key characters left British cycling, they hadn't really thought it through about how they're going to succession plan. So that was a really interesting project to be involved in. And then the trip to the southern hemisphere. There was many many teams I visited I guess it was quite reassuring the all of them were going through their own challenges as well as I was going to my own everyone gave something different I remember when Bennett assigned to me the rugby league coach he said wherever you go next to it make sure you 100% want to go and they understand what you to come sounds a little gem he gave me in the lead up to actually joining Lester[PB6] , I took something from Western force went to Western force I went to Melbourne rebels into the Waratahs to the roosters mighty Hawthorne sales to Clarkson great NFL coach so lots of learnings and then you had the opportunity lens to came up in September that year.
Paul Barnett 14:55
Stuart if you ever go on one of those again and you need someone to carry you bags. I will Gladly volunteer. If the job was
Stuart Lancaster 15:03
actually interesting, I went, I went first to say, I'm happy to share my story and tell you what I've learned from, from my experience. And I think by going and offering something to start with, I definitely think that helped build trust and open doors for a two way conversation. So I didn't just go and say, you know, you tell me, please tell me what you guys do. I went and said, Listen, why don't I share what I think I learned from coaching, and for four years to you guys. So I felt I was trying to add value as well as learn from them as well, I think that definitely was a good, a good way to go about it.
Paul Barnett 15:35
And clearly it was, I'd like to just talk about your coaching philosophy for a second, if I could, because I heard you describe it recently is no egos hard work, be humble, respectful work as a team, which is a great summary, I think of what you've been able to achieve at Lannister and earlier in your career as well with all the success you've had along the way. But interestingly, in that, quote, you start off with no egos. And so often in teams, that can be disruptive egos within a team. And I wanted to ask you, if you found any methods more successful than others in dealing with disruptive peer pressure?
Stuart Lancaster 16:08
Yeah, I've been, I've been pretty lucky, really, there's not been many teams I've been in where there's been that that sort of personality or that dynamic that said, and you don't want to suppress individual personality anyway. And I do think sport, the sport of rugby really is the ultimate team sport. When I have experienced it, the disruptive sort of ego environment, or the person who is driven by their own ego, they tend not to last long, because the group usually find them out and kick them out, but often the most talented actually. So they're always given the benefit of the doubt. So what I've tried to do when I have had one or two people like that, give them some feedback, first and foremost, both and try and raise their self awareness of the behaviors that they're demonstrating, because often they don't realize it. So I would I have a basic questionnaire that they would fill in on how they're perceived, how they think they're perceived, and outfit on my impression of them on some behavioral standards. And that's all well and good as well. But they'll believe that, well, you're just a coach, you know, you've, you've clearly got a bias for you. I'm not like that. So I will then do I'll then gather feedback from maybe five to 10 other people in the organization, that could be the physio, the head conditioner, the kit manager, a couple of senior players, a couple of younger players, and collate all this information, and present it back to the player who's perhaps needs to be more team focused. And usually at that point, the penny begins to drop that they need to change their behaviors to fit in. [PB7]
But also, if you've got a values based organization, like Leinster house, for example, you simply need to draw attention to the fact that you were not living the values here, if you're self centered, and you're only interested in the promotion of yourself, and it's all about you, that's hardly going to fit in with the values of being humble being a brother, or whatever the the team values are. So I do find that if you have someone like that often 360 degree feedback, delivered in the right way usually creates the change that you need. If that doesn't happen, then you need to start thinking about moving the player on because there's nothing I've seen more divisive than a player who thinks is above the values of the team. He talk
Paul Barnett 18:10
about values there. And I'd like to ask you about them because you've just finished your fifth season at Leicester and they they're now a dominant club within the European rugby, continued success, then it doesn't look like stopping given the results you've got at the minute but what are the values that are non negotiable within that team?
Stuart Lancaster 18:29
Yeah, we've got three values that underpin the club, which I'm probably will share all because the players values humble, humble, we want in that not humble, passive and not humble. We bow coward to everyone, but it's a humility about was wanting to get better. I think one of the real strengths of Leinster, for example, is their desire to want to get better, they've a very strong connection with each other because 95% of the team is from Leicester. So it's a homegrown team with the addition of two or three carefully selected overseas players. So to have the success that lends to has based on one provincial area, and to win 26 games straight in the pro 14 and three titles on the balance European Cup four times it's phenomenal, really for a homegrown team. But that level of identity, that level of cohesion is the reason why Lancer is successful. So I think that sort of desire want to want to get better is a really key quality in the group. I think the senior players drive a very high standard and hold each other to account. And I think the younger players who are becoming the senior players, they're growing as leaders and we're actively trying to grow them as leaders so they become the future leaders. And so the cycle continues. We never get to the situation where we've got an aging team and we fall off the edge of a cliff and have to start from the bottom and work our way up. Again. It's like one or two off at the top and some young lads coming in the bottom and we constant look into evolve and grow the leadership. So I think that would be a big factor. [PB8]
I think the way in which you train I would say this because I'm a coach, but I genuinely believe the way in which you train has a direct correlation to the way in which you play. The players are hungry to want to be challenged in training. They want to get better. They want to feel pressure so that they know that when the game comes on a weekend, they can deliver under pressure. And there's nothing more than I like than sitting down and designing sessions and trying to think of consistency of content or variety in the content to deliver that challenge that creates the diamonds on depression.[PB9]
Paul Barnett 20:26
Can I ask you then about these infamous Stu days which have become part of coaching law with you Atlanta? Could you take us through a normal if there is such a word as Tuesday i'm pronouncing it correctly, Stu days.
Stuart Lancaster 20:40
The first week I arrived at lensed at the defense coach had left a late in preseason. And I think it was the first league game had taken place. And he left our first league me suddenly had to return to New Zealand. I got a phone call other blue from Leo. Colin said we like to come over. Anyway. So I came over. And within a week I was coaching. And I arrived on the Monday and we were playing Glasgow on the Friday. So once Liam introduced me to 55 players, we didn't really have time for debate. I said right, let's have a look at our defense. I've clipped up some games that you played last week against your visa and the pro 14 final against Conor which we lost a couple of games from the European campaign where we struggled. And I basically threw the gauntlet down to them and said, What are you doing here? Why would you be defending like this? And I knew I could see them sort of look, look at me a bit shocked because I was so blunt. I said, Listen, we need to get this sorted. So long story short, we have an indoor session where we talked through the concepts. And then we went down to Donnybrook, the astroturf down there. And I think they expected like a walk and talk and we'll gradually build in with some drills. And you know, we'll feel our way through the session. But before they knew it, they were in three teams. And they were going absolutely flat out attack versus defense decision making me coaching in the moment. A lot of unstructured games very little time for rest or recovery. Certainly no time for debate. And that gets spawned the title is Tuesday. It was actually a Monday. But you know, if we've got a Saturday, Saturday turnaround Sundays off Mondays reviewed a fix up day relative light training, because we're still recovering. But Tuesday's the big day, Tuesday is the day that we can really work and hone our skills under pressure. So I expect maximum concentration, maximum intensity, I want to challenge them with lots of different decision making games, some of which are defense orientated, some are attack orientated. Every player will be involved in the session, it basically sets the standard with which we will prepare and play on a weekend. So it's not the only bit of coaching obviously during the week, but it's the bit that I think really can make the difference on the weekend. [PB10] Clearly it has been
Paul Barnett 22:43
you talked about cohesion before and I wanted to just circle back to that. Because the reality is you have so many of your players at Lennar start off on international duty. There's a lot of rotation. And I'm wondering how do you keep that cohesion? Strong and live with so much change within the team?
Stuart Lancaster 23:02
Yeah, I mean, it's good point because we I think we've this season alone, I think we've used over 45 players last season, I think we use 57. We've got, as you say 15 1617 players away at the moment with with Ireland, and it's an ever changing team. But I'll come back to the same point. It's the way in which we train, you know, I think there's often a lot of teams I would have visited or teams of coaches I've spoken to where you tend to prioritize just the status. If you're not in the starting team, then you get very little attention during the course of the week, what we tend to do is give everyone maximum opportunity to get involved in every training session, sometimes at the detriment of the starting team, we bank on the fact that over a period of time, the cohesion that we develop means that it's almost seamless, like one, one player steps out and another player steps in and everyone understands the flow and the style of rugby, we're trying to play, I think looking at, say Exeter chiefs who just won the Double in England, one of the most impressive things about obviously extra was was not just a double, but it was the the games that they played post lockdown, without their star players against to the Premiership teams that they still want. And they be very similar, you can always tell an extra team irrespective of who's playing because of the levels of cohesion. And I think we're looking at lensa because as I said, we've got home grown team, but that doesn't just give you it's the way in which you train and the integration of your players in your training session that creates that level of cohesion. That means you can chop and change and not have too much of a drop off in levels of performance. Stuart, I
Paul Barnett 24:28
wanted to ask you about your principles. As a coach, you've been coaching for a long time, you've got a teaching background. So you're very structured in the way you go about engaging with athletes. But Has there ever been a time in your coaching career where your principles as a coach were challenged? And if so, what advice would you have for others that might find themselves in that position?
Stuart Lancaster 24:49
Probably refer back to the answer again, not too long ago and you haven't twice my principles weren't necessarily challenged, but uh, probably when you've got a hand on the tiller, and it's your team, but you lessen your hand on the tiller Because you're looking at other, you're looking at the bigger picture or whatever else. I remember once there was a good friend of mine or a very good coach john Fletcher, who we grown up together as Academy coaches, he was Academy coach in Newcastle now as the academy coach at Leeds and we both had to become young directors of rugby, he was in Newcastle, I was at Leeds 35 years old. And at Leeds, I remember same sort of thing happening in I got so busy with recruitment or selection or building the bigger picture and developing the Academy, that probably took my hand off the coaching tiller a little bit. That's not to say I didn't agree with what the other coaches were doing. But he once said to me, it doesn't quite look like a Stewart Lancaster timber training, it's for the many times it didn't quite look like a Stewart Lancaster team. And I knew what he meant, in that, I'd allowed myself to sort of drift a little bit away from the hand on the tiller in terms of the coaching of the team. So that's not compromise your principles. It's more making sure your principles are lived through the team that your coach and I think that's what I would always fight for[PB11] . Now, if I was to go to a different role. For example, the new owner said to me, or do you want your role to be Oh, my first point would be, I want to be hands on coach, first and foremost, if I can do all the stuff, which hopefully I can and add value, both at the top of the organization at the academy level of the organization, then I want to set well, but ultimately I want to be on the coaching field shaping the way in which we play the game. Because ultimately, you can develop everything in and around team. But at the level, I've coached around coaching, it is about winning. And if you're going to be the head coach, you want to win, and you want to develop team to win in your way. Not a hybrid of your way.
Paul Barnett 26:30
Talking about winning when you beat Scarlet in the final A few years ago, there was this great quote from you. And I'd like to read it to if I could, at the corner of my eye. So he sent us he were stood by the side watching it unfold. It was such a such a special moment. And they are the things I love as a coach, knowing we have done it together. But it is their moment. And I wanted to ask you from the context of that, quote, what is it the legacy that you want to leave as a coach?
Stuart Lancaster 26:56
Well, there's a bit of a backstory, which I probably should share about that quote, because it was actually taken from a story we told I told in the lead up to that game about the Shawshank Redemption, about Andy defraying, who was obviously put in prison. And he was asked to do the tax returns to the guard. And they asked What do you want, and he said, for all his prison mates to have a beer, but he didn't have one. And he framed it now one. And he just wanted to sit back and see these guys who were in prison for various reasons, having that one beer and that sense of satisfaction that he took from seeing the people who's in jail with having that beer was ultimately what it meant for him and Kevin Sinfield, the Leeds rhinos captain is now the head coach while the director of rugby, he told that story about how that's what what it meant to him that peace and tranquility that you get in a change room after the game. And the only lasts for maybe 30 minutes where there's just you the players, the beers, the music, the trophy, or whatever it is that moment. They're the moments that you crave, really and Isa had finished his career at lensa without wind so we want to double do we had a an Irish band playing in the Intercontinental in Dublin. And it was about one o'clock in the morning and everyone's dancing around and beers are flowing. It's a brilliant evening family friends, everyone who you cared about was in the corner I spotted him just sat there leaning against the wall watching all without a beer. It was his underframe moment and for me to give him that moment probably meant not not just him but the players that mode I was quite happy to leave leave at that point. Go away my wife, my kids sit on holiday for a week and then enjoy the moment have a beer myself then roll the sleeves up and do it all over again because well it with England, you know, a few times but one particular memorable time we beat France in France and I think the bus was late or we were late to get away from change and we stayed in the change room with the music on and beers and they're the best ones.
Paul Barnett 28:54
But I'm not gonna let you off the hook. What's the legacy that you'd really like to leave behind you as a coach?
Stuart Lancaster 28:59
So I want to coach as long as I can. What I really enjoy so obviously to develop must keep developing as a coach keep keep working with great players keep helping players get better working in great teams winning things, obviously. But also what I'm finding rewarding now is that the players I used to coach him become coaches.[PB12] So if I would say I spoke to Lee black It was not too long ago what Stuart Hooper from Bath not too long those were to George Clinton from Gloucester not too long ago, I spoke to Jeff Patton who's coach in Australia and not too long ago. So there's lots of lots of those players going through which I find very rewarding to be able to, in the same way that people mentored me and supported me and passed on their experience. [PB13] And you know, I'm talking about the likes of Bill Belichick Kevin Barron, Brian Ashton who allow early 70s love to be able to pass on what I've learned as a coach as a leader. Once I finished, although still hopefully got a better way to go.
Paul Barnett 29:54
Stuart Lancaster, you've been very generous with your time. Thank you so much for talking to us tonight. All the best For the rest of the pro 14, and hope to see you somewhere in the world again on a study tour one day with me holding your bags abroad