Tim Sheens edit
Wed, Jan 31, 2024 5:50PM • 1:01:50
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
coach, play, players, people, coaching, club, good, ricky, game, team, days, football, put, captain, ball, groups, side, salary cap, referee, training
SPEAKERS
Paul Barnett, tim sheens
Paul Barnett 00:00
Tim Shane's Good afternoon, and welcome to the Great coach's podcast.
tim sheens 00:06
Hi, Paul, how are you?
Paul Barnett 00:07
I'm good. I'm, I'm thrilled to get you on. You're You're a legend of rugby league here in Australia. And I'm just thrilled that you said yes. So. So Tim, before we get going, though, could you tell us where you are in the world and what you've been doing so far today.
tim sheens 00:27
I'm living in Sydney have spent prior to coming back to the Tigers last year, I'd spent six or seven years in England. And becoming a citizen, as well. So dual citizenship, and my wife and I quite enjoy England. So we'll be traveling between there and here. So, but the club asked me to come back initially to do administration. And then of course, move forward on to interim coaching for Benji, to be quite honest, was pretty much how you call it. So, yeah, that's finished. And so I'm sort of sitting around. Every day is a Sunday, poor, you know, you can get up when you want. It reminds me of code, again, that dreaded thing, where, when we're in England, it's shut the football down to be quite honest. And so I ended up getting a bit lazy. So yeah, I've been training and doing a bit extra light. Yeah,
Paul Barnett 01:31
I can't imagine we're gonna go through the long arc of your career. Tim. Laziness isn't a word that comes to mind. But anyway, let's, let's go through the story. And, Tim, if I could, you've, you've been in the game your whole life, you've coached against the greatest, the greatest that rugby league in Australia has ever known. And you've also met so many other great coaches from sports, and not just in Australia, UK, in Europe and everywhere else. But if I could start with just a simple question to get his going, what is it you think the great coaches do differently that sets them apart?
tim sheens 02:10
That's a good point. You're talking about assistant coaches, for instance, or junior coaches, as opposed to maybe a professional coach, you know, like, I've come from the semi professional era, and through 97 went full time and professional in, in Australia within a realm. So I've seen you know, the two days a week, three days a week training times, and the four on you know, everyday basically, I think to be successful, there's a number of things, you know, you've got to be a good manager of people. When it's all said and done, whether it's a CEO of any firm. It's managing your people. In our sport, of course, it's a team sport, there's 13 Start and another for us from the bench. But in saying that it's a team sport, but it's a team sport is full of individuals. And a lot of coaches fail to address that they coaching as a team. They attack them as a team. Yeah, for instance, I'll give you a quick one. Yeah, you you're getting beat for the players are really having a go, they're bleeding from the nose, and it's been and the jaw and all the other things and the coach gets at halftime and gives them all a sprain. Yeah, that the four players, particularly if they're the veteran players, you know, the 29 year olds down, don't appreciate that sort of thing. So it is very difficult to understand just when you when you need to deal with them as a team and when you need to deal with them as individuals. So that's one thing. I think also, it's the timeframe, it's certainly full on it's a 24/7 job, full time football, professional football, and you're dealing with as opposed to your assistant coaches, you're dealing with the politics of the game, you're dealing with the politics within your club, outside your club, the media, social media, sponsors, and, and it's an endless, you know, I've got to do something. Now I've got to go to this function, I've got to do this, I've got to do that. And it is a it's something you've got to do. It's an obligation you do. Most senior coaches get well paid. And so it's not just a matter of turning up game day training and going on game day to to get it done. It's it's a club thing, and you got to deal with lots of different people. On top of that, you've got to set an environment. I think the environment that senior coach, that is so important. For instance, I believe, you want the players to come to want to be training, if you know what I mean. If you go to if you don't set the system up in a way that they're passing the ball be there early and they leave late. That's the type of person you want. And that's the type of system you have to have inside your club.
Paul Barnett 05:09
Team, you talk there about being good at managing people's first thing you said actually, now, if I've got my research, right, you started taking on leadership roles, way back in secondary school. And I'm wondering, who got you started back then who was helping you develop this man management skill back then?
tim sheens 05:30
I suppose I was born Catholic, Catholic school, so I was always Christian Brothers or Maris brothers. Their discipline was strong. You know, in fact, so strong a cop the UCOP the strap if you did. But yeah, I was, for whatever it is, I don't know, I was popular with with the with the school nights and I seem to always be a prefect, you know, as in school print. And then I was ended up school captain at St. Gregory's, in my last year of school. But a little I seem to be popular in that regard. Whether it was because I played football, and I was captain of the team regularly, or something like that, I don't know. But the brothers, Morris brothers and Christian brothers had a lot to do with it. Particularly my two years at St. Gregory's. The Marist brothers, they were very nice at the age of 70. And at the top of age, my father passed away my grandfather passed away. So not many men in my life, but they were I was at boarding school for two years. And, you know, I had a lot of help from from the brothers. As I said, I was a school principal there and 68 God, how long ago was that? And the, and that helps, you know, I had to get up and make speeches, I had to meet people for new dignitaries that came to the school and I was the, you know, I was representing the students. So that's maybe that had something to do with it, I suppose. Yeah. And I enjoy players who are captains general and my other third World Cup side, I took out a heap of captains in it, you know, captains of their respective sites. And generally, there's a there's a personality with a captain, you know, one way or another and, and so not that I pick him, just to be because they're a captain. But NASA you'd be surprised how many captains play for Australia, for instance, or play for New South Wales and Queensland, that type of thing.
Paul Barnett 07:40
I was also went to a brother school that was marked by discipline, but your styles not? Doesn't seem to be focused on that team. It's interesting that these people shaped you early. But your it seems to be very calm and focused on the team and its strengths. Not necessarily, you know, discipline and hard rigor, which we, which we often hear about being taught.
tim sheens 08:05
Yeah, I think people people don't know as much about me as I think they do. I've had my little rants. And I've certainly, but it's not something that's a constant day in and day out. My personality is to work with the individual and try to get your reason when you help them. And you show interest in them, you generally get a result. Now the difference is, is you got you know, I use a It's not mine, I got it from a an American Coach, I can't, I can't recall exactly where it was that long ago. But it was be consistent with treating everybody differently. Now, that is a 29 year old veteran and a 19 year old rookie, two different people. And so they're both playing in the same team, you know, you've got to, you've got to treat them differently, but be fair. So it's a matter of working, I prefer to work on that system. Then again, you know, sometimes the so called discipline areas, if they do the wrong thing is a 29 year old veteran or a 19 year old kid, they still get discipline, but it's a different discipline. I expect more from the veteran, I'd give the kid a second chance. Depending on what it is, it's a third or fourth chance even you know, sometimes it's just not that that black and white that you make another mistake and you're gone from the team or you're going from the club, but a veteran will get could play poorly for a couple of games and still make the team whereas a 19 year olds not going to you know that type of thing. So it is a there's variation to your disciplines and how you handle it. [PB1]
But I find you've got to assess exactly what makes the athlete tick, tick, sorry, whether it's you know, arm around the shoulder For a kick up the tail, a reminder about this certain The other thing, you've just got to be switched on, you got to know your player, know your people, that's just not your players, that's your coaching staff, that's your general staff, that's the office staff. That's the CEO. You got to know how to handle them as well. So it's a matter of, that's how I operate. They train hard, but they enjoy training because I like to put a football in the hand to train. You know, I grew up doing road runs through the Penrith mountains, and getting flogged. And having coaches say I will give him the ball in January where and make them hungry for it, you know, so we didn't have a football in our hand. So you know, our first few games, obviously, you know, your skill levels were down. So yeah, those sorts of things, because I had 13 coaches in the sorry, at first great coaches in the 13 years, I played within eight. So I, whether I learned something from everyone, but I certainly learned a lot about the fact that they you don't last long. If you're not, if you've not set the system up properly, if you don't deal with your players properly. If you don't treat them with respect, did you particularly again, 100 200, game player, versus a 19 year old rookie. So those sorts of things that are where I, where I come from, you know,
Paul Barnett 11:29
you've, as you said, you started out in Paris, you had a great career out there, then you coach them, you took them to their first finals, you took Canberra and West's to their first Premiership. I mean, it's just been a long and storied career team. And I'm wondering what insight this has given you about helping teams step up and realize the potential
tim sheens 11:51
to start with? Yeah, one of the things as a coach, or a manager, you've got to have is good Recruitment Policy and have a good eye for that type of thing. I think the best coaches are good recruiters. And you started me off with what makes a you know, a good coach. Because really, as Jack Gibson, one of the famous coaches that you say that I that were in the game, and certainly I coached against him, I had the privilege of coaching against him just at the back end of his career. was yeah, the players have something to do with it. A nice simple statement he has to make when they won Premiership. So it's true, you, you've got to develop the right group. They might not all be representative players, but they they have to suit your style. [PB2]
My style is obviously an attacking style. i The rulebook says score more points in the opposition. And I take that literally, and look for an offensive game. In fact, a good offense will be and well organized defense any day, any day, the coaches who say aren't all about defense, with respect. Yeah, that's a philosophy that's not mine. We, you've still gotta be able to tackle, right? But it's not about if you're gonna go out there and say, well, we'll just defend ourselves defend every week and not score enough points, you're not going to win, most teams will score points at, you've got to be able to score more than that into is a defense if you want to if you follow what I'm saying. But not that you don't do anything about it, but the individual needs to be able to tackle and be physically fit and strong, and so on and so on. So I'm getting off the track a little bit, but the end of the day, your philosophies and your recruitment and so on and so on are very important. For those first, for instance, to pair with one, I think was as good as good at coaching as I've ever done. And, and for me personally because of where we finished through the 70s and early 80s. When I played we never made a semi final minute it was top five, but we never made a semi final so to make it 75 And 85 was to be as good a thing as I've coach and a and that can that includes the grand finals and World Cup and all that sort of stuff.
Paul Barnett 14:19
In the words that come up a lot when people talk about your coaching style, innovation, experimentation, just trying new things. It's it seems to be a trademark of what you do you say it's an offensive style, but you're also innovating. Now, yes, people that innovate often get a lot of feedback, and not all of it's good. I'm wondering how you've learned to deal with the more conservative stakeholders in the game as you've gone about changing the game.
tim sheens 14:52
Well, journalists, let's try catch you get you get a fair amount of what you want. You know if you want a piece of equipment or you need it Take him on a camp, all you need to do. You know, I was I was pushing for training centers way back when I was in the race, the Raiders, we looked at some schools that closed down in the AC t and we were going to do that if they eventually their first, their first what would you call it, their first training center was they put it up on a on a piece of land that was Tech College, allowed them to put a building up and use their field, you know, so I'd seen that in America, and so on. So getting a professional setup was what I was looking for, right back in those days. And the club was prepared to help in big time. So I haven't had much trouble or pushback from that type of thing. But part of being, you know, different or innovative, or whatever you want to call it is to is to spark the players. Yeah, they're trying hard. In the old days, they had to train three days, playing on the fourth day, it was a seven day week and then working, you know, so it was pretty hard on him to turn up and then have a full day's work, turn up the training and then say right, now we're going to just run 2k, runs, 5k, runs, runs. Yeah, we're going to flog the hell out of us. So end up putting football in the hand, which is what they play for, you know, the football was the most, the best thing you can do as a coach, whether it's a soccer ball, or football or baseball or whatever, is to get them out there practicing and train training, while you practice is the best thing these days. Of course, with all the ups they can put on him, you don't have to have too many times. Yeah, with a stopwatch anymore. You can, you can pick up what their what their speed is, and everything. Yeah, basically on on the best site where these days. So, but again needs to be the whole thing needs to be I want to be there, you know, and the players are coming in late or they're struggling or they're that type of thing. Obviously, the environment isn't right. And you've got to you've got to work hard to make sure that it is. So as well as challenging, those athletes are really competitive, you know, that drives them into athletics or football or whatever sport. So the training has to be competitive as well, and rewards the rewards for wins. And other things I always found work really well. Because one thing they wanted to do if you played the left edge against your right edge in defense and offense, they really competed hard. So as much as possible, you know, I use that type of technique. A lot of coaches that those same days in those days, were just using stopwatches to run hundreds and to doing 20 Hundreds and, and doing all these sorts of things. Although the conditioners were involved in that as well, I was lucky to have some very good people who said to me, we should be doing more with this and more with that. And of course my I bought, we not whatever we do we do with the ball in the hand. There's 90% of it has to be with a football in their hands. The fundamental thing about winning a game of or doing anything is to be able to control the footfall. And if you can't pass and you can't you kick this kind of kick and you catch us can't catch because they're not doing anything with the ball on a regular basis. They do these days. But in the old days when it was three days a week was Tuesday, they flogged you. Thursday, you did some ball work. And Saturday, you did a captain's run and went for beer before you played on Sunday. It's changed quite significantly. It's yours. Yeah. But as far as as far as I say, you know, your discipline type of thing. There are coaches who do a lot of jumpers are very active in the box. And you you think a lot of people think that's great, they're, they're passionate and so on. But God loves them, most of them. They need someone in the box for them to translate what they're saying down to the sideline to task on the ground. are not going to use any examples here. But I know for a fact. So it is it is everyone's different. You know, again, you coach your personality. And if you're an intense person, and you're an intense player or athlete, you'll be intense if you're a coach. Because if you're not, you're not true to your spirit, you know, so but it's how you control that. You know how you control it.
Paul Barnett 19:54
Tim, how much of your communication if you look at an average week he divided up I check how much of its individual with the players versus speaking to collectives of people groups.
tim sheens 20:07
depends, again, preseason, it's a lot more, it's spend a lot more time with them individually and as groups, because you're explaining a new season starting, you've got fresh players coming in, you've got if you're new to the club, for instance, even you know, you've got a lot of things to do, the language is very important, the, the, what they call their plays, and so on, and so on. So all of that has to be practiced, you've got to introduce the new players. And that come generally to your club every year, all grown up through your system coming through the juniors. And so yeah, preseason is different to during season and of course, then posts at the back of the season, if you're in the big games, you're doing a lot more with individuals again. So I don't know if I could put a, as you say, a pie on it. Yeah, what percentage it would be, all I know is that I would deal with the more individually in preseason. And just towards the back end of the season, if you chasing semi finals and sound, there's a lot of work to be done in respect to keeping them focused and not panicking, and so on, and so on. And then, of course, if you make the finals, it's a hell of a lot of that changes things as well, it's a different scenario again.
But one thing's for sure, I do do a lot of one on ones with players I like to, I like to hear their individual input into what happened during the game. And, and also, I like to give them my input as well. But I'm interested to hear what they think about the game, because during the game, you can discuss things with the key people, your spine, as they call it, yeah, your key people that are running the game, but the guy out on the wing, or the guy, you know, in the centers, or in the middle of the scrum, he's got an opinion as well. And it's interesting to get it because sometimes you get a feeling of you know, what happened here, we didn't do this, we didn't do that, and so on, and so on. And it's not always who you thought or what you thought, when you really talk to people or again, when you look at your video, because coaches do interviews straight after straight after a game and the lead do that deliberately as to the media, because they want the emotion that comes with just after the game, you know? And, and of course, that's where coaches get fined. That's Rick. He's, you know, when he gets when he gets fired up, but then suddenly, then you go home, watch the video to the guy. Oh, you know, I was quite something wrong there. Yeah, I did the wrong thing here or whatever. Yeah, it doesn't always compute that the two things come together nicely. So sometimes you're paying fines, other times you get an apology, and sometimes you have to give an apology. So but the it is emotional is your professional sport, it is when we'll be sacked. And we've all talked about coaches are waiting to be sacked. You're, that's basically when you start coaching, it's a matter of how long before you sack and we've all had a level of that even the best, way better, and so on. So, I mean, it doesn't mean that you're not a good coach, it just means sometimes you're a round peg in a square hole, you don't fit with the organization. And you need to find around how to, to join.[PB3]
Paul Barnett 23:34
And I pick up on emotions and intensity to you. Another word that comes up is intensity. You people talk about you being intense, but they also reference it when it comes to the way you prepare people the train and the way you focus on performance. I, you've had such a long journey and time in the game. I'm wondering, you must have found a way to switch this intensity on an offer. I imagine you just would have burned out. Is there anything that you've learned that you think others could fold into their own toolkit to get better at switching that intensity on and off?
tim sheens 24:08
Yeah, it is interesting that as a person yourself, you're dealing if you're coaching or you're playing if you're playing, you're starting a teenager, you generally between there and your retirement, you get married and you have children. The kids do that and coaches are the same your family life is is tough on your favorite. There's no doubt if you're full on and so yeah, the priorities are it's like there's a job and there's a professional professions 24/7 You know, you're thinking about it, you're not always working but you're thinking about it. The players can go home, look at the video and forget it and then trying to not worry about it. Coaches are forever thinking about it from the day from right from the end of the last west of the final whistle on the day. You've got three injuries, you've got all these sorts of things, you've got poor players, you can play poorly, and you've warned them. So you've probably got to change a couple of players. I generally try not to drop the player without giving him a warning, particularly a senior player 19 year old might be in for the week and out and out straightaway, because the other player comes back in and you've got to deal with that. But yeah, it is it is constantly your heads in it. Even if your legs aren't, you know, run around with them and doing those sorts of things, but to say, I think what is it 40 years or something? Since I've started professionally coaching this year, and yeah, I look back and say, where's that time gone? You know, because when you flat out Time goes fast. I used to count the calendar by the season, you know, around five years in, but having an interest like having some, some coaches play golf, some do this some Yeah, a lot of them get out just to get out. And I've worked, I use the gym a bit. And I haven't gotten a lot of interest, the shoulder doesn't let me hit a golf ball anymore. But you're trying to switch off, it's not easy. It's not easy. And people will tell you Shane's talks football under the water, you know, and, and you're getting that kiss now, you know, this is gonna go longer than you think. But but it is what it seems that you know, it's cost me in my personal life a bit. And so yeah, there are there are consequences for the for the game, but the game has been good to me. And I've had plenty of ups and plenty of downs, you know, but over a period of time, it was the thing that I you know, as I say, you know, you don't work a day in your life if you're doing something you enjoy. And I think that's I did, I didn't see getting up at five to go to work and coming home at night at night as as as work. It was just enjoy, and I enjoy doing what I have to do.
Paul Barnett 27:13
Can I ask you, Tim, I don't want to ask you about the downside. There's been enough written about the whole incident recently with with the disgraceful decision that was made, I don't I don't think we need to go into it. I think that there's been enough that one of the things, you know, you always ask your players. And this has been consistent through your career to develop the ability to play at least two positions. Now, in a world where we're increasingly being pushed into specialization, we're getting smaller and smaller pigeonholes woman was more generalization important to you.
tim sheens 27:49
Because in a long season, unless you've got a particularly under salary cap, you've got limited access to players of experience. In the old days, there's no salary cap, you could buy a player halfway through the year and that's not a problem as long as the club could afford it. So you needed versatility from the point of view of an injury during a game you carry for interchange but in days gone by it used to be to various other period versions of it unlimited when certainly first kicked off. So you need to be able to in an instance say well move salads over to that position and we'll put sell and so on to something else. So you've got to train them in sometimes those positions as well. You've got to for instance, Benji Marshall started as a as a senator, if I had had in if I didn't have brokerage that I probably would have played in fullback. I didn't have a five, eight. So we ended up at five eight, which where he played at school, but he's played, he's played other positions during the game because he's an athlete, Robbie Farah did the same. Ricky shirt was a specialist half Laurie Darley, they played five eight center, lock forward and pull back in the early days, until he settled down as a five, eight so yeah, on their way through, for instance, you know, players developing the skills to be a first grader rather than a school boy. You know, sometimes you've got to take a backseat and play just to get a game in any position. So I know at school I was I was always a five, eight center. And I went to grade I was big enough, but I was I was big for five, eight, but I was too so for five eight in first grade. So the coach said you're going to the forward to pick it up and you'll be in the bit of speed that I did have and skill from being a five eight helped me be a forward you know, so I learned early days and you know, I saw it regularly. players coming in as a 19 year old I'll set up and up a 29 year old back row front row. And as Jason croaker went from, from winning, to set out to five, eight to look forward to second row to front row, he did, he went all that way through, not because he was getting lazy and fat. That's because he as he got older, he side of it, but he's experienced a tough gig and he just played anywhere you wanted him to play the dreaded, as they call it, our game utility player who plays into 14 jumper regularly, you know, he can play three or four positions he can play halfback, five, eight and Hooka. If you needed to be play lock forward, I play Cameron Smith look forward during games of times and body on board on a fresh Orca. The those sorts of things are just you know, be lovely to say 13 or start though 13 or stay in those positions. And and so on. The four on the bench have to cover 13 positions to start with. And although the positions are cut down, I mean, they got two centers, but you got a left and a right and two second rollers. Two wingers who front rollers No, no. But even playing left and right is is a challenge for some players who carry a ball specifically in the right hand corner struggle sometimes playing on the left side of the field, because they're carrying with the ball in the area where the impact zone. So through the four players that are that you've got to balance those four players, you got to be able to play somewhere in the 13 positions. And so having them being able to play two or three positions and understanding that that's their role. It's a seven day making game these days. That the the interchange guy or you get a an injury during the game, or you get a send off or you get a scene being you've got to be able to adjust fairly quickly. So they've got to they've got to know how to play. I don't teach them all how to kick or anything. Yeah, but when Lazarus could kick a ball down Broman for Penrith. Yeah, just because I pigeonholed into a position didn't mean I didn't have skill levels. globalizers came from the second row. And I I put him in the front row because of an injury a serious injury to Brett Todd which was a year injury. So Glen started playing front row for the year and and ended up probably the best front row and one of them anyway does still play the game isn't the only result. You know? So? Yeah, that's that's basically why I think most coaches have it in their heads, you know, or he can he could play center if he had to, you know, or he can play second round, you know, they're out there on the edge side by side anyway, these days, you know, the game has changed dramatically from the two centers playing together and, and that type of thing, which was the rugby union style in us as we we came and Lauren Ryan, of course, dramatically changed the game into left and right. And that that was my give him all the credit for that.
Paul Barnett 33:08
In there's this term in the USA, it's not used so much actually, Australia or Europe, it's called a coaching tree. And they use it to describe you know, people that have played under you as players and have gone on to coach themselves. Now. What's interesting about your tree is there are four other men who have gone on to become premiership coaches. Now, what sort of, of course is one who's tragically passed away. But what I wanted to ask you is you've had some success at being a leader yourself, but also nurturing other people to go on and lead. And I'm wondering if you've identified anything that's important when it comes to developing future talent lead.
tim sheens 33:50
Yeah, generally Paul, they'll come from their intelligence plus dark come from around your rock area. You know, despite the hooker halfbacks, the fullback said as Mel, for instance, very played center all his career or they were I did see him play back row once on a tour under all Don Furner and he didn't like it. But overall, though, coaches have come from systems where they've had to think about the game while they're playing it, you know, they've had the smarter players. But but to say, you can pick him No, I could never. I could never pick Laurie dahlias as a coastal Atlanta media guy or Rick. Rick said to me one side and I said you want to coach he said I don't know. I don't know what I'm going to do until they do it. Is a very off the cuff player. There's hustlers exactly the same applied but this is a permanent Junior. Even though he hates me saying that because I'm so old. He says you stay But my last year was his first year in grade. Anyway. So yeah, it does just you never know. I mean Craig Bellamy is a classic I gave Craig his first job is under under 23 skates or under 20 ones I can't remember now but it was a third grade side and Craig Craig I thought would go into conditioning and that type of that side of the game performance in that regard because he was very very fit and then pushed himself to the limits and so on and was interested you know, in that and a great bloke, you know, outside of when he's intense is is a terrific player. And that's that's his that's his trade off for the intensity I think the players still love him. But that helps of course when you get results you can you justify anything you can do then once you've got the experience and the result, but no, I wouldn't have picked Lori dally as I said as a media guy or Greg Alexander as a media guy though young idiots who run around young you can't put it and you shouldn't put try to put a 30 year old head on a 19 year old kid that's again another thing I've learned you know you by treating them differently you know they're going to make mistakes you know that the young so yeah, there's but to say some yeah, sometimes you can see it other times the young kid were so won't name him but he was didn't play a lot of first grade but he was a captain at the lower grades. Very smart kid and I thought this will be a good coach. We might even make a good referee because the referees were looking for young young players who weren't quite going to make it and and went around the clubs asking you know would would there be any will and they were going to become apprentices apprentice referees you know? This is prior just prior to the to referee system we have a lot of their costs to to referee system a lot of the younger blokes got gained time because they were part of the second referee on the game. I put it to him about being a referee said no way. Because he thought the referees were the worst thing ever. But he was I'd seen you turn referees inside out on the field with rule knowing the rules and all the other things that which is why I loved him but but he knocked back $90,000 a year to be an apprentice referee and he I think he regretted these days but but so you can't always pick who's gonna jump out of the air and be a coach and yell and be a successful coach a lot. A lot of players become assistant coaches. No doubt. Not all of them go on to be first grade coaches, let alone grade first grade coaches who win premierships and although you know, you can sometimes fall into a group.
If you're lucky, when you coach you, you when you leave a club, you leave a legacy. And when you go to a club, you gain a legacy from that previous administration. There's always some good and bad in both ways. And so it's being able to learn to be able to then turn take the good and and improve it. And not everyone can do that. Every now and then you get a champion team that as I was lucky enough with Canberra, although we had to champion team said we had the 8788 group 8990 91 Last two salary cap and then we reinvented the 94 side. And that 93 We should have won it or could have won except for like my captain who wouldn't come off the field. That wreck again. I can say these things because I know you're taking you're taking with a grain. It was a lesson well learned he broke his end up I was going to move him in a paramedic game got three deaths and the end of the season we were we were really demolishing sides with a leading paramotor by 60 points and I said I'll give Ricky a break. Anyway the trainer went out you give the trainer of God full on not giving up. A minute later he fractured badly fractured and broke his leg. his ankle so he missed the semis and we went straight in and straight out so I every now and then remind him about that. As as I think there was a very good experience from point of view for Playa del team. He stayed on the field not coming off when he might stay you're Ricky himself Yeah, those sorts of experiences you just don't know. You know like Rick when he left the club after I did and ended up in Canterbury and then roosters give him a junior starting coaching While you wait you know he's done a great job So Laurie representative catching mal representative gauging you know that's their things that yeah they will have the intelligence to the game that's the first thing I did you'd say you're not a smart play you're not going to be a smart coach. But in saying that I'm not having the gallery replied yeah, there's certain amounts of players who play the position where they've got the job to do and that's it they don't mind yeah, it's an important part every every part of the game is important. But some people have to run the game they have to see the game in their head. Peter Sterling for instance, always remember the comment he made when asked about how do you read the game he said, take your eyes off the play the ball and actually have a look at the game. You know, the little things like that are players that you're going to say well a percentage of them may end up coaching. Craig where to Craig went on to, to do performance at with with Wayne better Broncos. And then gradually started to you know, throw in a few ideas and sound and sound and I ended up weighing ended up getting a coaching gig when Wayne was away on rep 40 or something. And he taught the first grade side and played west side I think it was a Campbelltown how to win and they call him the Bronco babies or baby Broncos or something that was inserted in Craig Craig and just went further and further up the ladder with the Broncos with with weight and had to leave obviously to get a job. Fortunately for me, Wes digas interviewed him and he knocked him back and went on to Melbourne, which was fortunate for him. And fortunately for me, I got the job after him. After coaching at Raiders yeah, there's
Paul Barnett 41:58
a couple of names in there, which I will be chasing down listeners over the next year or so. I don't know Craig Bellamy will go on to be a legend at the gay male Meninga Warren Ryan, I mean, some of them are just just legends. But I'd like to stick with you if we can, Mr. Shane's because we're not finished yet. I want to go back in time, your your great uncle played the first ever game for Bellemain I, when I found Angstadt. I thought that was quite amazing, because 100 years later, you're coaching the team. It's it's quite amazing. And you know, the great thing about rugby league is this. It's just such a game of belonging and identity. And I I wanted to want to ask you what you've what you've learned about creating this sense of connection, motivation, identity in a group, which is often just full of professionals moving from one club to another.
tim sheens 42:58
Yeah, Ricky is very big on this too. I'm actually going down to the silo to Him and do some things for the club. Next week, excellent. Yeah, I think he understood. He made a comment which about the writers of his era, about how close they were as players, how they did everything together. trained hard, competed hard. Drank hard, but you know, had a bond. The fact that they were successful, because they were talented, obviously helped that too. But because nothing, nothing better than winning, to bring a group of players together, you know, you have a bad season. It does. It is it can fracture you somewhat, because you've got to make some big decisions on who stays who doesn't. Whereas a really good premiership, standard side or a top forward standard side. And I say top four, not top a top four is where you need to be. If you're if you're really going to be a chance to win a competition and and a winning team in that regard. The momentum tends to keep you going. There's lots of things that help you as a coach. Certainly, if you're counting down the other end of the scale, it's tough. Yeah. I first my first gig was Penrith in 984. And he made me professional I'd be I was probably one of the first if not the first professional coach in rugby league in Australia. Although Jack Gibson was independently wealthy, so I didn't work. But But yeah, what I mean like most of guys were school teachers and yeah, I mean, I've got I've got a basket, his head that I bought at an auction. Why is it Tom used to put me cap on top of it. So he was really good to me Jack. Even when he was coaching against me The back end, as I said, the back end of his career, but the the situation of the morale and the general feeling not just in a team has to be in your club as well has to be your people. Remember, the targets, for instance, I was living at Penrith when I first came down from Townsville was getting up at four to get to work and beat the traffic, which comes down from the mountains there, you know, and go into Sydney. And there'd be someone there training some of their club before me that conditioner or, and even the car, he came from Campbelltown. Steven noise so it was people there before you got there people there after you got there, there was no one in a hurry to leave. At two o'clock in the afternoon when the players finished the players to do extras or that, you know, they'd hang together, they gotta have a coffee together, creating and I encourage them to I'm not taking credit for it. But as soon as I smelled it, I encouraged it. So it's that type of people you need.
There's three things, three things you got to be you're looking for, you know, one is public perception. Yeah, well, what they think of your club and your team to is public perception, your opposition and little groups over here talking about middle groups over there. They're the three things you've got to work on all the time, what they think of your club, but they think you'd be a team. So you've got to do promos, you've got to do all sorts of things outside just playing football, you've got to serve your club, your opposition is obvious, right? This is in any business, I'm talking about your load sport, when you think about it applies to all businesses. So you've got your opposition, that's a natural, we're always trying to improve ourselves to be better than that. And then you've got little groups talking about little groups, and what happens there, that splits your club, you get that bit of politic thing happening. That doesn't mean yeah, having a lunch there and have a bit of lunch here on generally talking about their, inside your organization, there are groups, and they're talking about other groups inside the organization, that's, that's the thing that will drive your club down and drag the morale down. So you've got to, you've got to do something about that every day, we obviously do something about the opposition. Every day, we come to training to prepare and beat them. The other one is public perception these days, particularly with your websites and your you can control the narrative, not let the media do it. You're going to try them and you're going to website and you get the news first. So you you push the you push the narrative. And, and and you and you you talk to people who are got Oh, God acts with you. Yeah. Whether it's a sponsor or a war, the sad or the other thing. You go to a fan engagement days as a coach and you talk, they generally get it wrong. You'd be surprised how many times say they get it wrong. And, yeah, we thought this and all we thought that you know, and then of course, making sure that everybody inside the organization is, is when I say happy with one another. You can always you've always got competition inside that I won't have alone have groups shoot and other groups down. Yeah, that's, that's a major problem.[PB4]
Paul Barnett 48:36
Team. If I could take it back, I've got the Time Machine downstairs, I'll dust it off. If I could take you back and introduce you to that. That young man who was studying law, right? He was studying law, and he was thinking about which path to take in life, knowing knowing what you know, now, what would you say to him?
tim sheens 48:56
Army would say, why didn't you finish your law degree? There are days, there are days like that. But really now, Paul, I think, given the experience I've had and the game has been really good to me. I've had many rough moments, as I say, but overall, the games been really good to me. And Roy Simmons said it Yeah, he's the man. He's got dementia, he will not blame the game for dementia. And he will hit you over the year if you tried to say that to him, you know, he knew what he was doing. And the game was good to him and has been and still continues to be good to him. So it is something that as I said earlier, I haven't worked a dime a lot because I have been involved with it. And I've enjoyed every moment of it. And the experience that comes with the downs as well prepares you for that seeing since you understand it's experience. It's it's the 29 year old veteran. Yeah. As you get older as a coach you know, you know what to expect and and and how to how to manage it if you can, sometimes it's out of your hands now referee three things oh, well two things anyway injury, Injury and referees as in rule rules interpretation so the two things you've got very little if no saying and they're the two things that can really destroy you. You lose key players during the year you can't replace them and people think you should be able to but it's excused the press expression but it's bullshit you can't we have you haven't got a roster in salary cap some clubs have but you haven't got a key halfback to replace another key halfback you know that type of thing you know, even even some of the more stronger clubs will tell you that yeah, roosters have had trouble over a few years over halfback since Cooper. injuries to their to their key people. You lose your fullback like I lost to desko in 2012 in the very first game, he did a cruciate ligament lasting for the year I'd still be coaching with tigers if Teddy continued to play and I say that I genuinely say that and I think it was proven when as he continued to play for the targets for that short period of time after that, and then grabbed by the roosters. So yeah, key players could be players and an or decision or a bounce of the ball. That's probably the third one that shake ball never bounces true. Yeah. So it's it's one of those things that you've got certain things in your set you tend to learn and live with that. Some never get over the the referee thing. And understandably because referees going full time and got video reviews now and so on and so on, which is why it all came in decide was it a try another try video refereeing which has expanded out to you know, giving the captain's OSI and so on. It's been great. It's a great system, but it's still human nature and human error and human into interpretation. So they're gonna get it wrong at times. Unfortunately, that happens to hurt a key one. You know, it comes down hard on referee, so I feel for them. I never want to be one. But I feel for them in and truly Yeah, I've seen it from the days when, as I say they were part time right through to being fully professional well paid. Officials now with the amount of tech they've got to cover themselves is brilliant, you know, but even then, well, then they get them wrong, sometimes, you know, the interpretations and so on. So, but sometimes it will now obviously, that keeps the media in business. So without, without controversy now again, that have nothing to write about. There's no on TV, in the old days. There's only a certain amount of games on TV. So you have to go the game to see your game. And the media had to go and report the game. Yeah, I scored a good try. And they don't do that anymore. Everyone can start and watch it on on a flat screen TV, it's better to get a better view than you do at the ground. So yeah, it's changed a lot, but put the pressure on a lot of people, players referees. Yeah, they can look up your nose without cameras these days. And so yeah, you're, you're under the spotlight. So there's, there's a whole heap of things that that have changed. And, but and sometimes that's why I'd say why did I become so busy? I was actually doing more as an article clock, working in Penrith and, and playing at the same started playing at the same time. So I'm just after go to school.
Paul Barnett 53:55
Well, look, Dave, I want to finish with one last question. If I couldn't get back to Ricky Stuart, of course, we, Ricky. Ricky, of course for those listening was was was one of the great coaches we interviewed a year or so back. But Ricky had this interesting quote, Timmy said, the greatest compliment for a coach is to have others copy you and a lot copied, Tim. But what he doesn't say is exactly what they copied. So I wanted to just to finish, Tim, by asking you in those quiet small moments when you do reflect what is it that you hope that these other people have copied from you in a positive way?
tim sheens 54:37
I think I'd like to think anyway, although I've been criticized for it sometimes and is I like to play an open style again, from the point of view of recruit players accordingly. But that all started with just common sense. If you haven't got a massive forward pack and you've got A brilliant backline where you play to your strengths you might improve your forwards and that was the raiders in 88. When I got there they had a big name backline and a no nine Ford pack. But eventually the Fords the Lazarus, welders and Bradley Clyde's in this world turned out to be as good as any anyone that played. So, but you know, at the time I had with Ricky and Laurie and malman, Inga and Gary Laurie in the center's five eight, Peter Jackson. Chris O'Sullivan. Ivan Hand Jack. Yeah. Kevin Walters are all playing here in Ada. So it was backline team. ticker Fergus on doing Gary Belcher at fullback, you know, so we move the ball. And that's why Ricky got his game of halfback because the other half backs couldn't throw the ball as far as he could. With his left hand, in particular, left to right, the rugby union background and him kicking left and right put it the others were as many ways as competitive as Rick. And that's a big statement, because it's not too many more competitive than ring. But Ivan and Jack Chrissy O'Sullivan, those sorts of guys. Yeah. But Rick had a skill set that suited what I wanted to do, based on what the team look like, you know, most halfback screen Alexander Roy Simmons, they could not throw a left to right, they could turn their back to throw right to left. Yeah, the skills of the game have improved dramatically because of coaching and also full time football. But those days, Ricky gets right or left to right paths, as far as he could throw a right to left and yeah, cut out for people. And when he got back line that we had, so yeah, those sorts of things. I'd like to think people an attacking style of football. To me, is the style to play. Yeah, yeah. If you can score 30 points, again, the opposition to have to be able to score 31 or 31. To beat Yeah, and not every team can do that. And I use that as my philosophy, since it was played schoolboy 40 years back. So I didn't play as a ball fed for, as I say, played as a back, I used to love to play and run with the ball and kick a ball and son, I was a goalkeeper and all that never got to do that in grade. But the AutoPIPE football, but basically it was all about you know, using the ball and attacking and scoring tries. And so that was my background. So that's what I and I built a team around that. Players who could who could make a difference in the team offensively with the first I'd look at before look at their defense. If they couldn't tackle well, they wouldn't have got that part they can't tackle. And then it's just a matter of what defenses to putting a system together of defense, if that cannot tackle and you get them doing the same thing. Whether it's jamming in or drifting out or doing whatever man on man. As long as I can tackle one on one, then they're okay. They don't have to be brutal. Yeah, or champion wrestlers and all that sort of stuff. But although the game yeah, definitely the speed of the play. The ball controls the game somewhat. But I firmly believe in the offensive side of the game and the catches are so differently. That I know we know five. We were giving away a lot of points. scoring a lot of points. We got into the 70s it's the best teams in the clumps and George Brisbane and Parramatta and Brian Bronk, Nebraska has just said that cowboys we, we had, on average 10 points a game scored against us on average, and 32 points for that we went through the semi finals, undefeated by averaging 32 points and only giving up 10 reps during the year I was averaging out just mid 20s, where we have to score 30 to win and we were but we were capable of doing it. And but we didn't have for whatever reason, the size experience and lots of other things seemed in defense that we had to scramble Well, in defense of some amount of break. Everyone's effort was to get back on site really quickly, which we were able to do because we weren't a big sign on the Raiders underwriters. Gotcha. We had to we had two areas there. Yeah, the 888 side should have won it grade side. Had all those players before they went off to Brisbane some of them went off to Brisbane send me back on and then we read them we wanted on it and unlucky 91 and then had to reinvent ourselves get good again for 24. So, but again it was with the core of the team they are Laurie Ricky, man, Ireland, so on. And a good bunch of young kids coming through the Marlins as a matter of this world croaker and we redid it again. But to say I was very very lucky to be involved with those guys Yeah, like you know, I might have helped them but they certainly helped my reputation to embody that hell out of me as well that everyone would get get to the game on time and I'd have no problem after they get when they hit when that hit camera on a nightclub I'd have to go down there that was my excuse Anyway, go down there make sure I stayed with them to make sure they did the right thing.
Paul Barnett 1:00:55
Well ever is a small town and I'm sure you had your feelers out for what those boys were up to. The team. Yeah, I was told. It's been an absolute pleasure to interview today to get to know you either a few phone calls as we prepared. It's just it's a complete masterclass. And I'm sure there's a lot of people out there listening whose career you've helped along the way and his lives. You've touched through those fan events and so forth. But I can only thank you again for making the time available and taking us a little bit behind the curtain on what's been a stellar career.
tim sheens 1:01:28
Yes, Paul, thanks very much my that it's bought back a lot of memories good and bad. more good than bad night, so don't worry so and I'll be ready for the phone calls from Ricky and when even when it comes. I'll see you next week. Anyway, you're probably email me, let me know. Thanks. No problem. Thanks for all the best