Tom Ryan Edit

Mon, 9/6 7:15AM • 35:40

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

coach, people, winning, life, important, wrestling, deep, gable, paul, chosen, student athlete, suffering, stockdale, world, teague, wrestler, initiative, thinking, deeply, love

SPEAKERS

Paul Barnett, Tom Ryan

Paul Barnett 00:00

Catch her on. Good afternoon, and welcome to the Great coach's podcast. Great to be with you. Can I start with a really simple question? Where are you in the world today? And what have you been up to?

Tom Ryan 00:10

Well, I'm in Columbus, Ohio coaching at Ohio State University, a dream job for me around just amazing people. We're in the midst of our college wrestling season. That'll end in a few weeks is a shortened season by COVID. But life's good.

Paul Barnett 00:25

I have been looking forward to this interview for a long time I as we were saying, just before we went on, I've been chasing you mercilessly. So thank you very much for your time today. Yeah, Paul, like

Tom Ryan 00:34

I said before, I mean, you would be a dog on a bone and a wrestling mat. I mean, you would just be all over your opponent's legs attacking left and right. I love it.

Paul Barnett 00:43

I'm not going to edit that initiative matters. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. And hopefully we'll get into initiative as we go along. But sure, I wanted to start actually just by winding the clock back because when I was researching for today, I was amazed at actually the the legendary coaches that you've had experienced to there's, of course, Dan Gable. But there's also Terry brands and Steve Fraser. And so a simple question maybe to kick us off. What do you think the great coaches do differently?

Tom Ryan 01:10

I have been blessed, incredibly blessed with the men I've been around in this sport. I've taken I think something from each of them. And they've given me so much. Obviously, you mentioned coach Gable, Steve Frazier, Chris Campbell, Tom brands, Terry brands, like in Mac regions, alaskey. I mean, the list is endless. My life has crossed paths with with a lot of wrestling legends in the sport and great men, Lenny's alaskey, and just a lot of men I stay in touch with To this day, I would say one of the things I learned from Coach Gable, and to me he really moved me as a competitor from one place to another. And deep trust was something that I think, is critically important in leadership. And Coach Gable had that trust. And when we have deep trust, progress, escalates, right? And then it's it becomes a vicious cycle of I trusted, I have progress, because I have progress. I'm trusting more. And I trust more progress. And the relationship between trust and progress is undeniable.[PB1] Coach Gable taught me, I think, you know, I wrote a book called chosen suffering. Coach, Abel taught me how to suffer at a level that I could not have gotten from myself. Coach Gable taught me the power of just the deep benefit of being in a community of people that are like minded and have a deep love for what they do. Coach Gable taught me the power of the tongue, and it from the standpoint that I mean, all these things are in Scripture, I have a strong faith strong your faith gets and the more you experience, human beings in life and the way they do things, the more you can find truth of that in Scripture, but but coach Gable was a very positive real leader, he never used his tongue to whip you. And that's not an easy thing to not do when you're emotional, or when things aren't going that well. Now, fortunately, for Coach Gable, when I was on the team, things are going really well. Right. So there was a lot of heartache in our performances, I would say, those are some of the things that leaders have, I think there's three just in categories, right. Think of great leaders. The first is their examples, right? I mean, most of the people that I look back in my life, and I have followed, it's like they were leading by their actions more than their words. And I think they're all great examples. And Coach Gable. And among many other tools I've had were great, just just great examples of how to live, they also embrace pain and suffering. I think all leaders embrace pain and suffering, they're willing to deal with the tough things and have it not about finding the easy way. But they just, they just embrace the tough aspects of their role. And then the third thing that I know that they do is they they share truth in love, and truth and love, right? every conversation is a combination of that, that we have every interaction with you another human being, it's like, I want to share a truth. But I want to share it in a way that you can, you can absorb it, and it sinks in, and sometimes truth without love, and were turned off and we say abrasive, and sometimes too much love is viewed as you're appeasing me, give me some truth. So this perfect combination is such a challenge for us. And I think it's something that he was really just really good at, which makes him more trustworthy, more believable, and then you have progress so that it's just a vicious cycle. [PB2] But I'd say those are probably some of the things I've learned from some coaches along the way.

Paul Barnett 04:23

It's a great answer, Tom, thank you for sharing. And I would like to talk a little bit later on if we could about suffering. But I'd like to just take you there through your career a little bit if we could, because, you know, right now you're at Ohio. And if my numbers are correct, it's just a lazy 76% win ratio. I don't know if that's dipped up or down this year, but I'm sure it's still pretty Yeah. And you know, the images or what have you. You're just so calm when I see you beside the mat. You're very calm, you're very measured. There's no sense of urgency or panic. And it got me thinking actually what what are the many facets of being a college wrestling coach,

Tom Ryan 05:01

I think one of our roles as coaches is to reduce stress, right competition is a tremendous stress enhancer just in general, right? A lot of young people pour their lives right into competing. And one of the things that we try to do as a staff and some of the elite leaders have been around as their stress decreases. So and even as a competitor, one of the traits of the elite, I've coached or been coached by is tremendous emotional control. I mean, having emotional control is something that time and time again, I we coached a four time NCAA champion in Logan Stever. And in the midst of his toughest matches his most intense opponents, there was a sense of calm about him, he was up by one late in the match, he's down by two, there was a common sense about him. And I think that body language, right is one it's readable, right? It's very readable by your student athlete. And I think they can sense tension, right. And if the coach is tense, he must be tense for a reason. Maybe this is a, he's making more of this and I and that it causes the student athlete to be tense. And there are times when I do get up from the corner, and I'll be animated, typically at officials. But in general, we talk a lot to our team about body language, I think all of us that have watched competition through the years, there's something about a competitor, who shows composure through just as a calm, whether it's right, the quarterback, or whomever, any elite athletes, for the most part, very rarely do you see them act out in a way that speaks to a lack of emotional control. So we do our best to try to control that[PB3]

Paul Barnett 06:45

when you're leading that organization. Is it something you can teach? Or is it more about your actions and behaviors as a leader that set the standard?

Tom Ryan 06:55

I think human beings love feedback. I think feedback is just really important for us. And I there are times when we don't give feedback, right? The mind can wander to what what is my coach thinking? Right? So as a staff, we try to give feedback often. Right? So right in learning a skill, right? In practice and learning skill. The moment that we recognize this skill is not done properly, right? You have to intercede in a way that's productive, and not What in God's name are you doing? But hey, listen, you let's let's talk about this position, your head is a little high, your turn to the side, your hand is out of position. So feedback, and being able to communicate that instantly is, you know, is an incredibly important, [PB4] productive tool in learning. Because I do think I know that people love feedback. Now in a sport like wrestling, typically, if you're self aware, which is critically important, right? In any venture, you are getting instant feedback, right? So wrestling gives us instant feedback if I wrestled Paul right now, right? If you and I wrestled, and I shot on your right leg, and every time I got in, you found a way to get out in score on me. If I'm a self aware, I could assess that Paul's defense on his right side is better than my offense. So now I need to do something about I need to put a plan in place. And then and then action toward that plan. If I wrestled Paul for an hour and 40 minutes into the workout, I was exhausted and your energy levels stayed high, I could assess that. Paul is more fit than or perhaps Paul rested better than me the night before. Or perhaps Paul was more nutritionally sound than me. But I think which which gets to just young people and competitors, the great ones, one love assessment, but two, they live in reality, right? They live there, they're willing to honestly, and truthfully assess themselves in a way that allows an accurate plan to be put in place and assessed. But I can tell you, a lot of people don't live in reality. They don't they live in a fantasy world, they allow excuses to become the norm, and that only delays progress.[PB5]

Paul Barnett 08:58

So I'd like to pick up on this theme of self awareness and assessment actually, in relation to your career because you transition into coaching very quickly. You're an assistant at Indiana, you go to Hofstra, and then from 22,000, you just go on this incredible run six consecutive conference titles, a 47 match unbeaten streak in direction and at the time, that was the nation's longest. When you think back to the start in 2000, what is it you put in place that drove that result?

Tom Ryan 09:27

So I got the job at Hofstra in 96. I think I think I think patience, obviously is really important that anything worth having typically is going to take some time as an infrastructure that has to be in place. And although it's very frustrating when you're used to winning and developing when it's not happening quickly, right, you got to refer back to just some of the principles and the reality that things worth having. might take longer than we want them to. But motivation, deep love are non Go shovels for progress. Right? And I deeply love this sport. I love people that long to move themselves outside their comfort zone. I love risk takers, intelligent risk takers, not ridiculous, that guy would never jump out of an airplane. I have lots of friends that do. But you couldn't get me to do that. So I'm not talking about reckless risk. I'm talking about wise, intelligent, risk taking. And then just people right this is this is a life about people, right, I can reflect back on a lot of things. And I had a great work ethic I because I love what I was doing. Right? So so it's a lot easier to work really hard toward the things that we find great value, and then the things that we don't, I found great value in wrestling early on in my life. And when I reflect on all these intangibles, right, the private, single most valuable, intangible, are people, it's the greatest resource to us[PB6] . And more and more people were believing in what we were building at Hofstra. So as more and more people believe, you start to bring in another level of talent, and a level of individual that deeply loves what they're doing the way you deeply love what you're doing. And when you get a lot of people around and love what they do. It's amazing how many solutions to issues are found. And when you're around people that don't deeply love, it's amazing. How many excuses are found for why something can't happen. And I like young people, there's always their fault. It's always their fault. It's never right, we want to create an environment where it is never the coach's fault. I want to create an environment where it's always the coach's fault, it's always my fault. I want the student athlete to believe it's always their fault. So that started to happen at Hofstra. And then thank God for the many supportive alumni and friends and donors, they're an elite wrestlers, and fan base. And because of those people, right, they opened the door to a dream job for me to coach at Ohio State University.

Paul Barnett 11:54

So you got to Ohio 2006 program wasn't in great shell shape. So you start rebuilding it, it's a tough, big team you've got out there, what were the first things you did to set up that culture?

Tom Ryan 12:06

I would say also, the first thing that we did was, I made sure that I surrounded myself with the best staff and the best people, you know, not necessarily all of them are great wrestlers, but but what I was looking for, like men of character, right man who through the years, I knew their work ethic, right, and the type of people they are.[PB7] So that was the first thing was to build a staff that young prospects believed would take them from point A to point B, right. And then there's an assessment of the program and assessment of the student athletes in the program. There's building relationships with alumni and donors, because as much as were supported at Ohio State, you need the support of the community, I set up a tour of the state, I was an out of state person. So right you reflect on what are the things that people that are important to you will assess as negatives in the hire. Right? So take a SWOT analysis like okay, what things might they view about this hire, that would not bring them to full trust. So I wanted to write I extended my hand, I set up different locations around the state. And we went as a staff around the state and met the coaches and the people of the state from the sense that we're serving you. But you're not serving us here. We're serving you. Right. So the extended hand. I think those are some of the things and of course, assessing the state of our scholarships, because right, recruiting good people is a lifeline of any organization. I don't care how well you coach, if you don't have people that love it the way you do, you're going to struggle. So I say those are some of the things that that me and my staff did when we hire here in oh six.

Paul Barnett 13:42

And then eventually 2015, the NCAA champion took off. It took a while a long time. There was very few runners up to but yeah, so it's disappointing. But it was a great journey. And you could see the team building every year khatron. Are there any values or behaviors that are just fundamental to you and that program that have delivered that success?

Tom Ryan 14:08

Absolutely. We thought we had it one right near three. But God just said, Hold on, buddy. This ain't gonna happen yet. But we were like it was over. You know, Friday night, people were congratulating me and then the team ended up winning, grabbed a couple of forfeits and just had some really good fortune, that typically doesn't happen in an event. And they want a couple of tight matches. And it just wasn't meant to be but traits. So I guess we're talking about right traits that lead to sustained success. In Ohio State, you know, I wasn't after, nor was the athletic director, and which, by the way, working closely with the people above you, is critically important as a gladiator. We tend to be like Bulls in a china shop. And that's an ineffective way to go about things. You got to make sure that the people above you understand your thinking what you're doing. We always Send out to our administration, a report, kind of a state of the union. They know what we're thinking. They're never questioning, wondering what we are thinking, I happen to have a great boss who, who deeply loves the sport as well. So that's really nice. And I do believe it's hard to climb higher than anybody above you wants to know, it's not an easy thing to do. You need to support the people above you, but traits that we in general, are non negotiable traits, right? These are just non negotiable that through time I've seen develop[PB8] , so initiative, right, like your podcast right now. I mean, if you didn't have initiative, this is like you're talking to Tiger Woods right now. And the world's gonna be all geeked up that, you know, Paul got Tiger Woods on, what's your initiative? Like, just speaks to me? I don't know you very well, right. But I know that you're passionate about what you're doing, because you relentlessly in a very healthy, professional way, pursued this conversation. So I need people that that take initiative, right? A sitting around wondering what's going to happen next and hoping that someone solves your problem is a formula for a really difficult life, more difficult life that needs to be so so initiative is critically important. I talked about, I talked about emotional control. critically important, obviously, character is incredibly important. High character aggression, which is kind of like initiative, but it but aggression is incredibly important. A high EQ, just knowing who you are. being centered is really important. Intelligence is important. So So sport, you know, just a sport awareness, intelligence, you may not be Musk, right? You may not have the intelligence to center, a rocket ship to space, but enough in your area.[PB9] I think those are just some of the ones that come to mind. For me right now, for people that have success over the long haul, obviously, a deep longing, and love of hard work, right? Hard work yours, a lot of a lot of things, and his tireless work ethic. And typically, at least in my experience, I said this earlier that falls in line with the things that we love the most. So, you know, I may not love my job, but I love my kids. And I love my family. I do love my job but not met not. Not everyone does, right. But But we work tirelessly at it, because it provides our family, the ones we live with a better opportunity in this world, right? So it's certainly nice when you wake up in the morning, and you drive as fast as you can safely to get to work, and do what you love. But not every human being gets to experience that. But typically, their success is tied to something they do love.

Paul Barnett 17:42

You've been very vocal, actually, in your belief that community service is necessary if you're going to create athletes that are are in your words, life champions, what is it about community service that you think is so important? Well, I

Tom Ryan 17:56

think a priceless gift is to meet others in a place they are. Right. And I think community service is all about that. It's about giving building relationships, and working hard to understand where somebody is, and help them in some way get through that. But my team, we track and so what is our administration, right, we track the amount of hours that each student athlete gives, because giving is so incredibly important, how much they give to the community, we require them to be involved. We're involved with the hospitals, churches, were involved with autism events, we're involved with Olympic program, we're involved in literacy, second, and seven foundations just we go to schools and read the little kids. And I think, you know what's interesting, with community service that often, as much as these guys know, it's beneficial. It's also time out of their day was the value so much, right? So they got to drive to a middle school, you know, read for 30 minutes, drive home and interrupted some things. And initially, it's like, Man, these coaches are annoying, making me do this stuff. But the beauty and giving is on the way home, they're like, wow, the gift often isn't realized until you're on the back end. It's like, wow, that was really good. These little kids were so interested in my life and asking you questions, and you have this, this elevated sense of I made a difference. Oh, so typically, once they experience that it's a lot easier to sell them the next time to get out there and make a difference.[PB10]

Paul Barnett 19:25

To Tom, I came across your name actually through the book you mentioned at the top of the interview unchosen suffering, and you suffered a unimaginable loss for many of us with the passing of your five year old son Teague. You've written and spoken about it a lot. And you've said that it made you a better coach and I if it's not too personal, I'd like to ask why.

Tom Ryan 19:48

So the book was called chosen suffering. And obviously this isn't about the book. It's about my journey, right? Every human being has a journey. I was by by several people that had heard me speak about my five year old son On Teague, who died of a massive heart attack at the XR T, there were no warning signs. Right? This was in a case of a tumor on his brain that we knew was there and it was totally in six months to live. And I have friends that have experienced that, right? The heartache of that this was just from laughing to unconscious in a matter of instantaneously. We were laughing, telling stories about the day was Presidents Day, February 16 2004. He was healthy just had a physical, he was a wrestler, if you do 10 pull ups. I mean, it was nothing about him that wasn't on it. That was not healthy that we could see. So I think, well, I don't think this I know this. That pain causes one of two things in us. Right? It caused us to run and hide and pretend that the pain is not real. Right? And sometimes that's pills, sometimes that's alcohol, sometimes it's drugs, sometimes it's a lack of communication, all those things will take us to a place far worse than we were currently. Right. So pain does that pain also can cause us to grow. And think and assess[PB11] . And for me, right? I've experienced pain as a wrestler, right? I think anyone that works out at any level at all, understands chosen suffering in the book is basically about the two sufferings chosen and unchosen, right chosen makes sense to us. I caused it good or bad. I caused it. I chose to not come home at night as a father. And a year later, my kids are not very interested in me. And having a relationship with me, right. I chose to train three times a day. And three years later on now one of the elite athletes in my field, right, I'll say means in general, right? Whoever this may be right, chosen sufferings real. We choose the hard way. And typically it's going to benefit us. And that's a chosen sound, right? That's a beneficial chosen suffering, right, the more the more we find, we move away from comfort, the better chance we have of growing and then there's just unchosen suffering that I learned about as a 36 year old man. And that was the passing of my son, Teague. And that pain was far greater than any 15 mile run ever went on. Right, far greater than any loss I'd experienced as a competitor. It was, it was, it was so refining in my life, it caused me to do something that nothing else had been able to do. And that simply right to dig in deeply[PB12] . And consider the single most important question that every man and woman faces on this planet, right? I had thought deeply about what university I was going to attend. What sport, right, I was going to pour my life into what friendships I was going to have, what sneakers I was going to buy, what car I was going to buy, what town I was going to live in, how many children I would have, right? There were a lot of things that I contemplated and made decisions on that were really important decisions. But the crazy thing for me as a 36 year old man leading people was I never gave much time or energy into how I got to Earth. My Why? Why am I here? How did I get here? Where is Teague? And there's basically right for me, I lined the page, left side of the page, God right side of the page, no God, and I dug into both. And I researched both. And I kept an open mind. And I didn't believe because I was told to believe or because I was so weak that I needed to save it elite lean on. That's not what it was. Ultimately, I found facts that led me to believe that I think that changed me more than anything. That's where the real transformation came in. And that's simply that human beings are not here by accident, human beings to me, I'm not trying to impose my theological life on anybody. I don't have to I think any human being that's that quiets the world and looks deeply into allows their mind to openly research, I think they'll find the same thing that I did. And that's chance, the fact that human being could come from nothing, start from nothing at everything we have came from nothing. And then you have this beautiful creature called human. It just didn't add up to me. There's a lot more facts that I could share for hours on why I chose to believe that but it really moved me as a coach and a leader. And I just see people now as the end result of a loving God

Paul Barnett 24:30

to great story. Thank you for sharing it, Tom. It's unimaginable but it's it's also good to see how it's empowered you and allowed you to influence other people's lives for the better. There's another great quote from you actually, and I don't mean to litter this whole interview with Craig quotes. It strikes it jumped out at me actually because you say that winning is not as important as the energy that should be spent on the things that can be controlled, if it temper preparation, mindset and attitude. So It led me to want to ask is there a coaching example where you've been able to lift an individual or a team's performance by helping them move away from focusing on winning and onto those other elements that you flagged as being more important?

Tom Ryan 25:14

I would say that you mentioned this earlier, our team has been NCAA, which in America, our collegiate system, there's a pro you're the Pro League at the college, to college sports, there are there are hundreds of universities that compete there are hundreds of 1000s of Americans, you know, love sport, one of the top with a second best wrestling program in America over the last 10 years. And I would say that part of the reason why is the philosophy so I don't think there's any one example right we had, in 2016, Kyle Snyder won an Olympic gold medal as a junior in college. Right? Kyle was a young, he's the youngest American to ever win an Olympic gold medal. And he was in studying at The Ohio State University when he did that. He also won two world titles right in college. And I think that there are a lot of reasons why he won, right? Clearly, there's something unique about him in the way he views the sport. One of the places he really grew was, you know, his motto became don't protect them. Right? That was his monster. And we are firm believers in monitors because the brain can only handle a few digits right at a time, right. So to simplify, when things are spiraling, you just go back to a monitor that settles your brain and brings you back to a place of total focus.[PB13] So Kyle is a good example of someone. Also, Logan Stever. Right, there's been four men in the history of college wrestling to win four national titles. Logan did that in 2015. You know, I say there's more men have been on the moon than have right won four national championships. Right? And a lot of it stems from the conversation, the words we use the culture, listen, everybody wants to when you go in a classroom, a second graders, and you rate us on the raise, right? Who likes to win, right? Everyone, everyone raises their hand, right. And winning is something that ultimately we don't have direct control. And we try to focus on things that we can control. And winning is not one of them. But to your point. effort is one of them. Body language is one of them. Right? your workload is one of them. So we really just tried to build an infrastructure around people that cause less stress, and focus on the things that they can control in their life. And winning is not one of them.[PB14] What about all around so watching golf, right? The culture is just engulfing and typically isn't. It's not like we won't bring up topics that speak to where our program is versus not right. It's not like it's not discussed. Love is the ultimate motivator. I Nothing is more powerful than right. Ultimately, if we can create a world, an environment, an organization where there's deep love, that organization will have the likelihood of sustained success and is far greater than an organization that's founded in fear.[PB15] Now, fear is a motivator, right? My dad motivated me with fear. I'm not saying it's right. So fear, absolutely. There are moments when you use right, you uses the rod, right to inspire, but long term that will not work nearly as well as love.

Paul Barnett 28:23

So many reach points in your story, the thing that resonates me the most is this idea of suffering being a basis for self improvement, and development. And you have to embrace it to move forward. And building resilience is such a topic at the minute Tom, it's it's, it's across society, we're all trying to get better at it. He took a group of people that are not connected to wrestling, they're not even athletes, and you were charged with helping them build resilience. What are some of the things you would do? Or some of the tips you would give them?

Tom Ryan 28:55

Yeah. So I guess the first thing I would work on pre loading their mind into how difficult growth can be right to expect it to be hard. You know, I think for me, when I first realized how hard it was going to be to be the best wrestler in the country, it actually got a little easier, if that makes any sense. What's like, like, if you go into marriage, thinking this is going to be easy, you're in big trouble. Right? So it's like preloading, this is going to destroy right marriage is God's ultimate test of unity. It's an ultimate test of teamwork, right? You're going to be on the team, whether they agree with you or not, in many situations, and you're staying on the team. So the first thing I think is just developing a mindset, right, getting the mind ready for what is about to move toward, and then I would set up right a series of challenging scenarios that they succeeded that right so it's the whole theory of right 1% better, they would be challenging but they would prevail is because prevailing is important.[PB16] I mean Very rarely, and they're beautiful stories when they happen. Does somebody in the World of Wrestling start out all in 20? And go on to win a national title? And often it's because they're dissuaded by their lack of success and success gives us something to hold on to. Do you play you golf? Do you like to swing? Yeah, me neither. Me neither. But when I do, and I never do, but rarely. It's like, it's a one good hit that brings me back. Right. It's that one thing I can hold on to that was like, Hey, that was that was good. So right. So we want to create an environment. That was challenging, but there was growth, there would be a ton of communication. Right? So building people, the ton of communication, I'll share even with my story with losing my son, right, my brain. Imagine it went to the worst case scenario, right? Like the worst case scenario is always a good baseline for us to live by. Right? So it's like it creates, it creates something. It's like, Okay, this is bad right now. But it could get worse, right? If I choose this way, right. So let's say that Tom Ryan chose to not deal with the pain who's experiencing he's got three children. This happens often, when a lot of times right marriages break up in big losses, when is heartache children are on father on mothered because of the deep, deep despair that that family is in? So my wife and I with help, right? we uncovered right, just how bad this could get. So then you have you have a picture of both scenarios? Well, if we come together, and we unify these three remaining children have on earth have a chance to grow and live their best life, we have a chance to make it together. Right? If we choose option B, our marriage will break up. And we're talking about potentially years and years in general with generational problems, right? We're talking about generational issues. My sons go on father, they're likely to unfollow their their children and their children, right? We're talking about a scenario that that echoes right through time. So in communication with growing moving forward, it's like, Sure, it's like it's like the Stockdale paradox, right Stockdale was was the POW that made it out, right? His story's incredible. And this guy with the heat when they interviewed him when he came back, right? They interviewed Stockdale. He said, what was it that made you get through that others did as a prisoner of war. And he said, the ones that don't make it do not live in the perfect combination of realism and optimism. There's an intertwining of optimism and realism. Right? They didn't make it. They were overly optimistic. Every single holiday they thought would be the last one split into POW. And they were going to go Thanksgiving, Easter, you know, Christmas, they were gonna get out. They never got out. Right? They ultimately died of a broken heart. And Stockdale, his mind stayed in reality, I believe I'll get out. I don't know when right realism and optimism I'm going to get out. I just don't know when I'm not going to put a date on it. [PB17] It's like living in COVID. Right? It's going to come to an end. But don't put a date on it. April one because April, one comes and goes and you're still in it, like heartbroken. And then may comes in June and July. Listen, it's we're gonna get through it. I'm gonna live my best life now. And when we get through it with ruin and the power of that. So I think in developing a team you just got to talk about and growing people just being real

Paul Barnett 33:24

khatron. Tom, to amazing story. And just one last question, if I could, what's the legacy that you think you've left? so far? As a coach, I know you have many years ahead. But what's behind you so far?

Tom Ryan 33:40

I think we have what's called an Opus in the esses a significance is basically your scorecard of significance. Right? Because when we all have one, you know, do I want to remember is the guy that you know, coach, Olympic champion and world champions. And sure there's a part of me that cares about that a lot. Right? There's a part of me they care about how many national titles my team wins, right? But ultimately, right the thing that moves me the most are the number of people in my life that that have have have learned to love deeper. They've simply learned to love deeper. I'm an officiant. I've married quite a few of my student athletes, right. I'm involved in their in their lives. I think ultimately, the number of people that leave the program and are refined by the incredible power of deep love. I would say that's probably the single most important thing that I want to impart on my student athletes. deep love.[PB18]

Paul Barnett 34:37

Can I challenge you on that for a second? Yeah, yeah, I think listening to your story, the lesson that you leave very strongly, is one around. Suffering is gonna make you stronger, if you embrace it. And resilience is going to be with you for your whole life. If you don't shy away from it. Good. It's true. Those are absolutes tomorrow I am so glad that I chased you for this interview. It's been an absolute pleasure, an honor actually listening to you speak all the best for the season ahead. And I look forward to looking on from afar as that team calls its way back to its next NCAA championship.

Tom Ryan 35:15

Thanks, Paul. I mean, you and those amazing daughters you have, get a chance to come to the States. Come catch up. Come catch your Buckeye football game in a wrestling match.

Paul Barnett 35:25

I am going to hold you took me out. I am a huge football fan. And I would love my daughters to meet you. I think it would be absolutely wonderful. Yeah, well, there's nothing like a Buckeye game so we'll get you out. So thank you so much. Well, thanks again, Paul.