Turning Points edit
Thu, Sep 21, 2023 10:27PM • 51:54
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
coaches, players, coaching, people, won, learning, jackson, interesting, john wooden, talk, group, influences, play, story, success, change, rules, wooden, great, pat
SPEAKERS
David Turner, Paul Barnett
Paul Barnett 00:00
Dr. David Turner Good morning, your time, Steven here in Australia. And welcome to the great coaches podcast.
David Turner 00:09
I Paul, thanks very much for the Welcome,
Paul Barnett 00:11
David. So looking forward to this conversation we've been we've been talking about it for a while now. But before we get into it, could you tell us where you are in the world and what you've been up to so far today?
David Turner 00:23
Sure, okay. I'm sitting in a shared office in Cambridge in England. There's nobody else in the shared office. Nobody seems to get back in the habit of coming back in. What have I been up to? I've been preparing for the new academic year, doing a little bit of some podcasts apart from this one, and doing some writing, of research. That's about what I'm up to at the moment.
Paul Barnett 00:47
Well, I'm really excited because hopefully, this is the first of what I hope will be many podcasts that we will do together because you've got a fascinating background when it comes to, to learning about understanding and analyzing some of the world's great coaches. But I guess we should start at the start. My first question, David, where did your fascination with learning from legendary coaches come from?
David Turner 01:15
Okay, probably need to go back a bit. I kind of grew up playing a variety of different sports and eventually ended up going into education as a PE teacher, initially physical education. These days, I'm working as a senior lecturer in sports coaching in physical education at Anglia, Ruskin University in Cambridge. But I've been working 38 years in education, all around sport, from primary school level, right up to supervising doctorates. And alongside that, I've been coaching and fitness instructed in a variety of activities settings, for 40 years, alongside the work in education. So when I progressed from further education, college into university, it was a bit of a big leap. And I had to get my head around a lot of theory, and do a master's into a doctorate, etc. And I wanted to help my students to bridge the gap between theory and practice. And I thought the best way of doing that was to use these powerful stories of these legendary coaches that could bring coaching alive, and give them a kind of practical hook to hang their coat on with the theory and just help them a little bit. And I found those stories of those coaches. Powerful, insightful for myself anyway, and I wanted to share those with the wider world. So it grew a little bit from there, into kind of publics, public speaking events, some written published articles alongside that, and now, wonderfully podcast. So just these inspiring stories, really, that can help people to learn. And that can motivate us and give us a clue about this wonderful, rich thing that's coaching, you know, what might work, what might not work? How do other people operate?
Paul Barnett 03:06
I mean, some of the people that you've studied and written about are all time greats. That's Phil Jackson, this pet summit in there is Vince Lombardi. There's John Buchanan, who works with us a little bit on the podcast, but there's so many others, what have been the best ones, the favorite ones that you've worked on?
David Turner 03:25
Now, that's like, ask them, what's your favorite album of all time? Right? They're all different. I'm not going to duck the question. I think, Phil Jackson, I've gone back to some of the federal Jackson stuff to prepare for this podcast. And Phil Jackson is probably still my favorite coach, just such an unusual coaching in the approach that he took, but highly successful. I'll, I'll take the question somewhere else. One of the things that's interesting for me is that a lot of my students, my former students have latched on to some of these coaches. So I'm going to name drop, Tom Baker, who's a high performance basketball coach in this country, and a passionate educator, a former student of mine, he absolutely loves John Wooden, John Wooden is a guide in his life. He's what I would call a distance mentor. And that is largely as a result of my learning from legendary coaches to have him engaging with that. And I love the fact that people latch on to their favorites and use them as a guide to their life if you like. And that's a really nice side benefit of doing learn from legendary coaches.
Paul Barnett 04:31
We're gonna go back and we're gonna talk more about those coaches, I think in future episodes, build Bella Bella checks in there. And of course, you've got wooden and there's so many others. It's such a rich database, if that's the right word or a treasure trove of learning that you've created. But the focus of this discussion is key influences in turning points, which you've also spent some time thinking about. Why why is it important? Why should we be talking Baptists tonight.
David Turner 05:02
Okay, well, what I usually do we learn from legendary cheese's, I usually choose a coach, read about them and get immersed in everything that's ever been published or written or recorded about them for several months. I know when I'm doing a good job when I wake up in the middle of the night, and I think I am them, or I've been dreaming, I am them. So I'm trying to get intimately involved in their story. So I'd usually end up with a two hour talk, based on that and trying to package their story coherently and see what we can learn from it. That would be a big ask to jump into that here. So I think it's nice for us to think about some commonalities. And turning points and key influences is a way in a way of opening the door. I think.
I think the great thing about coaching is that all of the developmental stories that I was 20 Odd coaches that I've looked at, are so different. That's rich, but a commonality that I can put my finger on, is that there seem to be key influences, and significant turning points on those journeys that I can point to, that help us to have a deeper understanding of those coaches. So sometimes they're obvious, sometimes they're subtle. Sometimes they deliberate, sometimes they're happenstance. But these key influences and turning points can helpfully hopefully give us some profound wisdom into who the coaches are and why they coach the way they do. So that's why they might be a good fit for us.[PB1]
Paul Barnett 06:29
I mean, it's such a rich tapestry you talk about, so let's dive in. Okay, influences change, what have you noticed in that area, what comes through to you in these stories?
David Turner 06:42
I think it's a window. It's a window into trying to understand who and what these coaches are. So coaches are both the product and the manifestation of their experiences, coaches, coach as they are. And sometimes they'll be very aware of those influences. But sometimes when I'm looking at Coaches stories, I think, ah, that's why they are, and I'm not sure they even know some of that. And obviously, there's a subjective element, I understand that. There always is with stories, but that doesn't take away the, the verisimilitude, the ring of truth that you get, and it doesn't take away the power of stories. There's a danger in learning from legendary coaches, because Legends is something that's built on myth. And if we get to it today, I'll talk about John Wooden and one of his aspects, that's actually a found out really is a myth. It embroidered it a little bit, we can talk about that. But going back to it the the power of these things is is a window on understanding the coaches deeply.
Paul Barnett 07:38
So David, if we look through that window, what are some of the examples that you'd like to talk to us about tonight?
David Turner 07:46
Sure. So let's talk a little bit about Phil Jackson. Okay, so key influences, strict Christian upbringing. So Jackson wasn't allowed to watch films, watch TV, or go to any dancing events until he was a teenager. His parents were both ministers. So growing up, Jackson actually thought that he would become a minister as well. So, when we think about that, as a background, later on, Jackson emphasizes very much the spiritual development of groups, not necessarily in a religious way. And he almost seems to act or lead them as a minister might lead a diverse flock. So there's that interesting influence. They're coming from his background. Jackson went to university and studied religion, philosophy and psychology. And he developed broader interests. He rejected his strict Christian upbringing, but he had broader interests, such as Native American Indian culture, and Zen Buddhism. So what we end up with there is he literally uses tribal rituals to bring groups together. So he literally puts the incense around the changing room, or has totems that the players can relate to. And he, he brings in unusual unlikely interventions to his coaching such as meditation, yoga, various ways to prepare his athletes for athletic performance. And overarching that there's a strong spiritual dimension to his coaching approach. Again, not necessarily religious, but strongly spiritual. So as a specific example, Jackson was keen to stress to his players, that they should honor and respect their opponents, since they help you to be the best you can be. And that relates to the warrior culture of the Lakota Sioux tribe that he was familiar with. And it links to the Latin origin of the word competition, which is called pittore, which is meaning to strive together for excellence in self fulfillment. So just to summarize that, you know, we've got this Christian influence to start with, that gets him to be almost like a mini Is the two o'clock when he's coaching. We've got this interesting Zen Buddhism and Native American Indian culture, which helps helps him to use tools to build culture within a group, and develop the spirit of a group.
Paul Barnett 10:14
And David, if we run the ruler against that amazing example, and I guess many people listening, like myself have watched the last dance, we saw it in action we saw, well, did we, I mean, we saw him really in the background, influencing the group, but he was never in the forefront. But what can we learn from, from this approach that Phil Jackson had?
David Turner 10:38
think often we deal with individuals, and Jackson was dealing with the development of the group. And the group was more important, the group development was more important to Jackson than, than individuals, he wanted more of an egalitarian approach in the group, we'll think that's going to come out when we look at a turning point in a minute. So I won't go into that in too much depth, we'll develop that one a little bit later.
So I think it's really interesting, trying to become aware of trying to become aware of what Jackson did and what his influences were. But in doing this, what I hoped coaches will do is be more familiar with their own influences, and bring those to the surface and try to understand them a bit more. I think Jackson had a lot of self understanding. I think there's a lot of emphasis on rightly, on learning who your athletes are, and what their needs are, and being responsive to them. But we also need to learn who we are, and where we come in from, in order to promote our authenticity, and without which we can't have relationships with deep relationships with athletes.[PB2]
Paul Barnett 12:05
Nick, what's interesting about Joe Jackson is that lightning struck twice. So, you know, he went off to the Lakers, and he was able to sort of replicate the success he had with the bulls again. And whenever I think you can find someone that's able to succeed once and then twice, there is a certain degree of truth, perhaps in the style that they bring, but definitely some magic. I think the other thing that strikes me about Phil Jackson, I'm just thinking about it purely from a leadership point of view is that he wasn't afraid to bring spirituality into the center of his approach. And he did it in a way where he seemed to do it in a way from afar. That wasn't confrontational that wasn't requiring anything of anybody. It was just something that existed. He didn't ask anything from it. He just placed it there. And I thought, I mean, I've read all these books, I think, like what like many of us have, and it's a constant threat to all them. And some of those books have a 20 year gap between them, I think sacred hoops and 11 Rings was always I don't know if it's 20 years was definitely, definitely a long time. But I was really impressed with this, this sense of spirituality in the way that he used it with these tapes.
David Turner 13:20
Yeah, he had a lovely phrase, selflessness is the soul of teamwork. You know, I think that's amazing. He was trying to get his players to be selfless and, and he wasn't trying to force things on people. He was trying to enact change as coaches all lot. But he was trying to get people to buy into that change themselves. And that's a very different thing. And he was trying to get a culture of selflessness. And he didn't want to change people by force, which is a lot, a lot of what happens at that level. He wanted to change people by love. That's a big, big word to use, but love for your fellow player. concern that somebody else wasn't getting the light. I mean, the story with with Michael Jordan, which is what I really want to visit one of the turning points. In fact, I think I'm going to dive in now because we get we're touching upon it anyway. So I've called this turning point share the ball. So when he took over as the balls head coach in 1989, Jackson, Michael Jordan rather, was the dominant superstar. It won the NBA, Most Valuable Player Award in 88. He was the NBA scoring champion in 8899. But he never won a championship. And actually, looking back in the records, I think it's something like a quarter of a century that the highest scoring player hadn't been on a championship team, which is interesting. So greatest athlete on the planet, it frequently kind of win games single handedly almost. Jackson felt that he was doing a little bit too much on his own. So he wanted him to kind of surrender his own self interest for the greater good of the group. If you like a mighty tree in, in the rain forest that moves its canopies out of the saplings can get a bit of light. So Jackson implemented the triangle offense wasn't his innovation, but it was a strategy, a tactic that he adopted. And he adopted it because the triangle offense isn't a series of set plays, it reacts to the, the, what the opponents do, it brings in the whole group, everybody's important in some way, it's not reliant on just one playmaker. Somebody called it the Equal Opportunity offense. So allowed Jordan, to relate to his less talented individuals, was able to kind of bring them into the play a bit more, give them more of a role. The whole idea of all this is to try and make the whole more than the sum of its parts, which is a magic thing in coaching. If you can get to the point where the entity the team, the project is bigger than than even the stars, then that's really important, that emphasizes unselfishness. But we've already alluded to working in harmony and how each person within the group can be important within a system. So that was the whole idea. So what what, what ends up happening? Jackson, Jordan, sorry, is not quite so dominant, he passes the ball a bit more, he scores less points, they still let them go rampant in the fourth quarter every now and then to win a game. But he shares the ball more, the rest of the players grow more. In one championship winning season, he ends up passing the ball to Steve Carr, who takes the winning shot, who's a bench player, you know, as a periphery player. So the other players are allowed to grow, it becomes more of a group. And when you get a whole group, then you've got again, the spirit of the group grows. And they're not relying on one other person. So I think that's a wonderful story. And, you know, there's the old argument isn't there were coaches, and it's been said to me, are Well, Jack Jackson eonni wins with great players. Well, great players sometimes only win with Jackson. Because if we think about Michael Jordan, Kobe, Shaq, how many championship things do you think they won without Jackson? One, Shaq got one that Miami one. Right. But Jordan didn't. Kobe didn't. So it's a really interesting one. And going back to it. It's worth reiterating. selflessness is the soul of teamwork was a lovely phrase. I think Jackson used
Paul Barnett 17:38
the David, could we go from Phil Jackson, back to someone you mentioned a minute ago, perhaps? Well, he is the most mentioned coach on the podcast by a long, long way. People from all sports talk about it, not just for basketball, and it's of course, John. Because religion plays a part here to religion
David Turner 18:01
does play a part here to more more obviously, I guess than Jackson because wouldn't keeps his religious influence. He still doesn't push his religion on people, which I think is important to say, but it's a guiding light for him. Isn't it a framework for him? So starting with that, and it's a perfect segue in so thanks for that. We'll talk about his his creed, which we talked about informally before anyway. So legendarily and I'll go into why legendary in a minute. Wouldn't father passed on a seven point creed to his son simple rules to live your life by now, I said sometimes, myth and legend grow up around these coaches wouldn't father was meant to have written these or wouldn't father was meant to have given them to wooden when he graduated from school. But that's not true. These were published in 1931. And adapted slightly in by 1931. Wooden was already at university himself. Now, that doesn't mean that we negate it, his father felt that these simple rules were important enough to copy them out. And he and he adapted a couple of them slightly. And he still wanted to give his son these rules as to help him live his life and guide his life. So we've got these very simple rules. I'm sure people have heard of them. I won't read them all out. But Be true to yourself. The one that people often talk about is make each day your masterpiece, I think it was even alluded to on an episode of Ted Lasser. So you know that they're quite well known. They're these these guiding principles for him. What are they reinforced they reinforced the importance of traditional values and principles in an age of change and upheaval. And if we want to think about John Wooden for a little while, he coached mostly in the 1940s 1950s 1960s 1970s. So what have we got there? We've got the Korean War. We've got the civil rights movement. the hippie movement, we've got the Vietnam War. So a lot of change that wouldn't coach through. Wouldn't manages to keep a level success of leadership, consistent, successful leadership in changing times, by adhering to his creed. And apparently he carried around a piece of paper with them written on in a wallet, while he coached all the time. So kind of embodying steady, principled leadership in changing times. So if I embroider that with a little story, particular story, so the first practice of the season, when John Wooden lines the players up for an inspection, because he's got rules about no facial hair, and he's got rules about the hair being two inches or less in length, the practical reasons for that, by the way, he's not just being nominated, domineering, he believed that if you had facial hair, and you touch your hair, or you take your hair out your eyes, your fingers will be slick, and your passing won't be as good. But the star player from the previous championship winning team turns up with mutton chops along here. And he says to wooden, you know, look, it's my right. And you know, it's important to stand up for your rights and, and, you know, I don't want to come here kind of thing. So wouldn't agrees that rights are really important and standing up for him are important too. But he tells the player that he's got 15 minutes to correct the situation, or in his words, we're going to really miss you. And this is the star player. So you know, there's an interesting thing there about what's more important to you your your guiding principles, or the the superstar player? And how do you keep your life on a kind of track for vastly changing times? I guess my concern a little bit about that is I think the most important quality of coaches is adaptation. But we have got to get some sort of steadiness of consistency with coaching. And we've got to remember about John wooden's context, he's coaching in American University. The players are changing all the time. The players that are coming in are very different from different areas of the country. So he needs to be some sort of anchor, but steady in the middle of that.
Paul Barnett 22:14
I think it's interesting with wooden I interviewed, I must have interviewed at least half a dozen people that spoke with him spent time with him. But there was one gentleman in particular a guy called El skates, who has won top my head, I think he's won 10 NCAA titles, he's won more than wood. He's equaled most of all time. But he's in his 80s. And he, he had an office next to, to John Wood. And after John Wooden retired, he would come in every day, and he would sit in his office, and he'd answer mail, and he worked away and through that time, our skates had long and the conversations with him. And even though they had very different styles, if for instance, our skates had no rules, he's my number one rule was don't have a whole bunch of silly rules. And then he sort of amended that to be well don't do anything that embarrasses the team or the university. So they couldn't have been more conflicting. But listening to our speak, the admiration he had for the way that John Wooden was able to teach. And bring the best out of people was clearly palpable. And he referenced to the the idea, which I know is, is a wooden ism that everyone takes, which is you don't stop practice to instruct you instruct on the move in the moment. And I think that learning is particularly I remember reading it and thinking that it's so fascinating. So for me, I know I adopted it in a work sense. So rather than wait till after the session, and potentially write a nice email or follow up with somebody, I give gentle feedback and guidance ongoing in the middle in the moment. And I think I think that was something that I adjusted based on on that from from wooden but what about you, David, what are the big the big learnings that you've taken away from your, your study of the most famous coach of all time?
David Turner 24:11
Yeah, he's a pedagogical good in terms of sports coaching. He is a master educator. He starts off teaching English before he teaches basketball. And I guess I've got to say that, I believe in sports coaches and educator, there was a book of that title a few years back, and you know, both both are educating roles. And I do the same, I mean, the classroom and then on the pitch. They're not the same, but they're very similar. But John Wooden brings masterful teaching and learning to the coaching profession. And I think that leads nicely into the second key influence if I can do that. So, John John, wooden's high school teacher in Indiana. He was in a kind of one school One room class school in Midwest, his teacher sets the pupils the homework of writing an essay defining what success is. So this is in the 1920s. Intrigued, wouldn't think deeply and reflect deeply on the definition of success for decades after that. So when he himself goes into teaching and then coaching, he wants his pupils and his athletes to understand and how to judge and promote success. So he draws upon his father again. So quote from his father, always try to be the very best you can learn from others, yes, but don't try to be better than they are, you have no control over that. Instead, try very hard to be the best you can be that you have control over. So he starts to develop from 1934 onwards, I think it was his pyramid of success, with the blocks indicating, you know, how we achieve success. And he's famous definition of success as well. Just read it for reminding people, success is peace of mind, that is the direct result of self satisfaction, knowing you did your best to become the best you are capable of becoming. So wouldn't emphasize his very much self effort. Achieving your best he talks about his athletes, and he says, you know, this athlete was better than that. But I enjoyed coaching this athlete because I felt they got closest to their potential. So this idea about your own level of success is really interesting. And also the idea about the pyramid about helping his athletes and his pupils, to conceive of what success is what it really is, beyond the scoreboard. I actually need to give it that credit, by learning from legendary coaches, originally inspired by a book by Gary Walton, called the coaching philosophies of the all time greats, I think it was the main title was beyond winning. And there's a chapter on wooden in there. You know, I guess it's this thing about success is not winning. But winning is the byproduct of success. So wouldn't the ultimate process coaches and, you know, these players get really excited, they're going to the greatest coach of all time, and they get recruited there, and they're ready for the lesson. And the lesson is, how do you put your socks on so that you don't get blisters. But that's part of the process. And by such fine details are championships one. The interesting thing was wouldn't it wasn't successful, I don't think for 14 years, in terms of winning anything. So it took him a long time to get it right. And I think he wasn't the same. He's painted out to be at the start. People said he used a lot of profanity at the start and things like that. So he did change a bit over time. But once he hit his winning formula, he was very difficult to stop. People said that his tactics weren't very complex, but he just couldn't stop it, it was really done really well. He never scouted the opposition or very rarely scouted the opposition. And he didn't mention winning, his players say when he had an 80% win record at university level. So an incredible coach. I used to think years ago, when I read about him, it was a bit boring and you know, getting more liking because the older you go, the more you go with your tried and tested methods and stick to your process things.
Paul Barnett 28:23
I think humility was the word that came up to me reading about him and then hearing all these people talk about it. They just such humility, rugby coaches, you know, in England and South African cricket coaches, everybody seems to have, he seems to touch so many, many people. And yeah, humility is very much a central pillar I think of, of his personality. But what do we take away? What's What's the lesson in wood that we should be potentially reflecting on?
David Turner 29:01
I think it's interesting, you had that discussion earlier about the other coach who didn't have so many rules. When I think of what I don't think about the rules, I think about the Creed and the principles that he worked by, you know, and the principles are really important. Principles are more adaptable, they can change a little bit with time, you need guiding principles to your coaching approach. And he had these clear guiding principles. Maybe he was a bit over the top on the rules, but I'll go back to the context. Again, you know, he's got new players coming in all the time. You need to have a fairly strict set of rules that they're going to adhere to. wouldn't just did things so well with his own team, that he wasn't concerned with the opposition. So he's the old stories a little bit like Vince Lombardi, isn't it? You know, we're not going to achieve perfection, but we're going to get pretty near it. We're going to try and get things to perfection. So I mean, when I think about wouldn't I think about practice because he would think he would plan for an hour and a half for an hour's practice. And he had little cards for every practice you've ever done over the 40 years, with little notes on the back about what you do next time. So that meticulousness and that had hit adherence to a guiding set of principles and a guiding process is what I take away from it.
Paul Barnett 30:26
Now fascinating, maybe, if I could take you from John Wooden to another basketball coach, who had a very, very different style. But she's equally as famous. But well, let me let's let me ask you what you think when it comes to pet Summit?
David Turner 30:52
I'm somebody I've profiled recently, and I really came to tend to love this country. There's some great stories in there. Pat came from such a tough background. You know, she was working on the farm from a very early age. She had a very strict father, but he was six foot five out of fearsome staff, which is where she got the summit staff. He regularly beat his children. And I'm not saying that in an offhand way. It was culturally ingrained thing in Tennessee, that sort of time. I did it in schools. So you know, she treated her like the boys. II even when she got older, there was a party arranged for her 16th birthday, and she couldn't go to her birthday party because her father needed the high end before it rained. You didn't hug her for 43 years and you hugged her when Tennessee won its third national championship. When they won a championship the year afterwards. He said somebody around here can coach that was the first time I gave her a compliment. But then he said, but it might be one of your assistants. So he wasn't he wasn't rich, we've given away compliment. But and this is an interesting thing. To look at the wonderful Italian with the Chera skoro the play of light and dark with people. There was no basket no girls basketball in the catchment area of Pat Summitt school. So a father moved the whole family over the county line, leaving behind a recently hand built house. Access to basketball encouraged us to set our sights high, for instance, on playing in the Olympics in 1976, which was the first tournament for women at that level. This is this is a quote from Pat Summitt mother, he thought she could do anything because she was tough and raised up with the boys. When she suffered an ACL injury in 1974. The doctor told her she wouldn't play again. And her father was there. And he said play, she's going to the Olympics. And she recovered. And she did. Now, ACL reconstruction in that day is not what ACL reconstruction is in this day. And she became the CO captain of that team. And they won a medal there as well. So what how does that manifest in a coaching? Well, she's she's kind of thrust into coaching. She's thrust into coaching at a very tender age. She's about one year older than some of our players, men, she takes over, because the head coach suddenly resigns. He said, I've never coached a day in my life, I had no idea what was gonna happen to this program. So what are role models in coaching, she'd seen a couple of female coaches, but mostly the male ones. So what does she do? She adopts the stereotype of the shouting, screaming, tough coach, because that's what she's got to work on. And she can't afford to have a status domain because she's young. So she's deliberately hard headed, reluctant to be friendly, doesn't want to authority undermined intentionally barking orders, intimidating and insecure. So, you know, she runs players until they're sick and things like that. She heard overheard a player saying, Pat's never satisfied with me. She makes she makes me feel like I can't do anything right. And Pat said over the years, she gradually tried to change. Now, if I go back, a father was rock hard, right with the upbringing, but all those things he did like, like moving the family over the county line, our belief in the person and an underlying love my expressed, but they're, so we ended up with a coach Pat Summitt was hard, definitely. But she loved the players, and she wanted to open up opportunities for our players, and she did so well. But similar to the wooden story, she doesn't win anything for 14 years. And that's because she's on a journey. She said, I was so busy being tough. I didn't understand the value of getting to know the players on a deeper level. They have real strengths and vulnerabilities. So she needed to understand the player she was working with and how they responded to pressure. So there's a there was a famous incident. She had a playmaker. The name was hatmaker and she caused the group in for a timeout to cruise To point in the game towards the end of the huddle, she could give them the play that's going to get to the hands of hatmaker to make the final shot of the team has another huddle on the way out, this is what's going on. They do the play goes to someone else who scores the winning basket, they come back over and Nicola, before you before you go at this, she didn't want to take the shot. We knew she didn't want to take the shot. So we played it to someone else. So she understood then in that moment that she had to understand our players better and how to better responded in in difficult situations. So she came to this realization that the job of a coach wasn't to be a Sergeant Major. It was about preparing people to make good independent decisions on their own. When she started out, she used the phrase that she was trying to get athletes to think like Pat, at like Pat, a row of little pat Ling's, you know, just doing what she said or what she wanted. So she became over time, a more creative, resourceful coach didn't try to control everything. She realized you can have respect and authority, but still have a relationship with players. A particular team that was a catalyst for that was the 19 797 98 team. They were young and highly talented, but she realized they were all virtually all from broken homes. So she yelled less. She became more supportive and had a relaxed, more closer relationship with the players. So as Pat Summitt was renowned for one to one meetings, and just has a one to one meeting with a player. They look at all our stats, they look at physiological stuff, they look at psychological profiling, which summit used. And after this detailed meeting passes to the player, right, is there anything else I can do for you? And the pack set and the plaza yet there is a passage, what is it? Well, I'd like a hug. And you can imagine the moment and pack like Well, okay. But there's that moment where she's bending and becoming what they need. So a couple of quotes to finish with that. With this team, it seemed especially important to know more than just their personalities on the court, I needed to know their characters off it, the more the characters off it, the more trust in my relationship with players, the better teacher and coach, I could be to them. And this is where it ends up. That team ended up winning a championship. During the final. Pat Summitt calls them into a circle. She said, I've meditated all day on what kind of speech to give how to prepare them to play. But now looking straight into their eyes, I realized they didn't need a speech. There nobody answers for themselves. It was what you strive for, as a teacher, my job was done.
Paul Barnett 37:38
It's such a, it's such an amazing story. Pachi was such a big character. And I think she was last too as far too soon. I, I've interviewed a few people that played with her. Most famously, Nancy Lieberman and Linden knew her as well. And you know that you we've also got this overlay of the title nine changes in America and opening up opportunities for women. And I think Pat was so focused on on making that happen. But the turning point that she talks about, David, I've,
I've heard, I've heard a lot, particularly with these old, older coaches, I think who, who may have been coached by people that were influenced by the Second World War. And so they were coming out with this very the leadership model was this Sergeant Major approach.
And, you know, I've heard, I've heard, it described many, many different ways. But it all comes back to this realization that people want to be cared for respected and understood beyond their ability to just provide a service. And I think it's such a universal learning. It's definitely a learning for me that I've taken out of these interviews and that need to sort of think about care in a much more deeper and holistic way, and to bring it into your leadership style, and make it fundamentally something that you're not afraid to talk about. Because it's a trait it's I think it's a transition that happens to many of these great coaches. And Pat Summitt is just, it's just one great example of that.
David Turner 39:09
Yeah, I think the care was always there. I think it was, like a father, it was masked. And she needed this group to change her to bring it out. It's really interesting what you said about war. If you were John Wooden, and you were coaching people to come back from the war in the 19, late 1940s, or 50s. The interesting thing for me is those players probably would have wanted a military approach because they would have been more comfortable with it, they would have probably been very uncomfortable with a more caring approach. So some of this is about a developmental journey of change that you've seen in others and I've seen impact stomach for instance, or some of it is about also a fit with the cultural times and being the yelling, screaming coach, has become more and more unacceptable as time has gone on. And certain countries who can't change themselves become redundant because of that become a slideshow, because because they're no longer relevant to the cultural times too.
Paul Barnett 40:11
So, from pet Summit, could we go to? Well, one though I actually don't know a lot about and I'm really interested to hear more about him. And he's still coaching and of course, that's Bill Belichick.
David Turner 40:23
Yeah. Well, let's get into some key influences for Bill Belichick. His family were descended from Croatian immigrants who settled in the harsh US coal and steel making bill. They were hard workers, they were poor. They helped each other out. And they they took that opportunity. And these came up as immigrant families often do. Bellatrix father was a very smart coach, an exceptional teacher, and the foremost scout in American football of his era. He was at Navy. His job was to scout the team they were about to play. Bill went on the road with him and learned a lot watching him at work. The father had his son breaking down game footage at nine years old. So very early on, Belichick was developing a coaching knowledge, particularly for what might be called spoiling, which Phil Jackson was great at as well, which is taking the other team away from the soul of what they want to do. So he always planned to be a Coach Belichick. He wasn't a pro player. He went straight into coaching after graduation. He was an assistant and a specialist coach for four years at three different three different NFL clubs. So in 1975, he's a very lowly poorly paid assistant at the Baltimore Colts. He's sleeping on the sofa and things like that. So he's working his way up proving his worth, like his immigrant ancestors did. He then spent 12 years at the New York Giants as a defensive coach under another legendary coach Bill Parcells, who's hard as nails. He won two Super Bowl rings as a defensive coordinator. His defensive game plan when they beat the Buffalo Bills is in the Football Hall of Fame. So we've got this hard working prodigy with an excellent heritage and an excellent work experience. So I'm going to go into a turning point now. So he spent 16 years working his way up in the NFL, and he becomes head coach, he gets the chance with Cleveland Browns in 1991. He has a 36 win 44 loss record over five seasons with them. That's remarkable for a coach who's now got one of the best records of all time. So remarkably poor, he's got 67% win record now. He did get some development mental momentum with that group. But in mid 1995, the franchise owner who was in financial Jeopardy, announced that they were going to move the whole franchise to Baltimore. So they were in a financial mess and Belichick only learned about it in the papers. He wasn't even told about it. So despite assurances he was going to be considering as the coach, he was sacked by phone after a 511 season. They were actually on for four, but they only won one game from eight after that announcement was made. kind of went down the drain, if you'd like. So what happened at Cleveland, this is Bill Bellatrix nadian. He's low point. He's now considered a goat the greatest of all time kind of thing. So what happened was he found an organization that didn't have an identity at Cleveland. The College and the pro scouts were looking at different criteria for spotting talent so they weren't on the same page. Bella check wasn't used to be in front of house. He played hardball with the media, and he shut down their access and they turned against him. He seemed disinterested or rude in press conferences. He tried to be like Bill Parcells without his wit or his winning record. So he didn't know how to handle being a head coach. He also allowed the veteran players to bend the rules, which meant that within the group, there were cultural problems. He cut a quarterback who was a local boy made good because he felt he was physically diminished and therefore the crowd turned against him as well. So here he is, at his low point. So remember, it's spent about 16 years trying to get this head coach position. Next time if he got it next time would have to be different. He was in danger of being labeled a dour perennial assistant, a kind of football nerd if you like. A prodigy who didn't have any charisma. always the bridesmaid never brushed Blushing Bride sort of thing. So he goes back to assist pass out was at New England. This is a great story, right? Bella chick calls a play during the game and pastels seems to oppose it. But I went ahead and it worked. Even though it worked. Birgit Parcells was absolutely furious and over the open microphone for everybody in the coaching It seems to hear he Crawley says, Yeah, you're a genius. Everyone knows it a goddamn genius. But that's why you failed as a head coach. That's why you'll never be a head coach, some genius. So he's here he has been chewed out as well bypass cells. So what does he learn from this? And how does it affect the future? Well, he learned that planning issues around the game is as important as planning for the game. His dad gets him a breakdown film footage at nine years old, but his dad doesn't give him the nows about how he's going to be dealing with other people. He works out he needs to be his own man. So he was offered to be head coach of the New York Jets. But pastels was going to be the general manager. And after his experience with pastels, he turns it down. It becomes head coach instead of New England Patriots, but he's head coach and general manager himself. So he's also got an attuned relationship with the owner. So he's in a better position in that way. He stays unsentimental and Harding decision making, he had no entitlement culture, he never bends the rules anymore for the senior players. He recruits talented people who have a love of football, he pays them next to nothing. So they earn their way like he did. And then when they prove their worth, it gives them money. So he's got a vision for long term success. He kind of, he's not great with the media, but now he understands the media. So first thing he doesn't realize, get on the treadmill, read all the media reports that his press officer gives him. So it gets a feel for where they are. So he knows he's got to play the game to some extent. I'll leave it at that, I think. But the point is that he's he's would better check have created the dynasty in American football with New England Patriots that he did in a sport that's deliberately set up so that you can't create dynasties without that formative hard experience? And I would argue, no,
Paul Barnett 46:55
no, that's fascinating. And I, I hear that his relationship with the players was good, but he always stood back. He didn't meet with them one on one, he tried to keep some distance a buffer zone. So I've heard it described Is that Is that true, David?
David Turner 47:10
Yeah, you've got to remember, he wasn't a pro player, you've got to remember that he was very young, when he was dealing with some of these players. So he couldn't get very close to them. He had to fight his way up to earn his respect. And he's earned his respect as a coach. I don't think he's a particularly warm person. But I think he knows that. And he's not the charismatic person, that people would like him to be in front of the front of the cameras. But again, you come to terms with that, don't you? It's not trying to be someone else. But you can be the best version of yourself that you can be with people. He certainly better with the media than he was at Cleveland. But he's not a great, he's not a great charismatic media person. I don't think he gets terribly close with players. But that's because he's quite quite ruthless in his decision making, you know, he will cut you if you're not playing well. You know, he expects people to do their job as he's famous phrase is done. So his relationship with them is not a cozy couch. You know, when I when I profiled him, I actually compared him and Pete Carroll. And they're both at the same sort of level. Bellatrix a bit more successful, but Carol's had his success as well. Pete Carroll can be summed up by the phrase, something great is just about to happen. And Bill Belichick can be summed up with the phrase, if you don't do this, something terrible is gonna happen. But they both work.
Paul Barnett 48:35
So David, what, what can we take away from all of this?
David Turner 48:41
I think there's a few things. I mean, I think if you if you're interested in a coach, try and immerse yourself in looking at them and see if you can work out what makes them tick. You know, people say to me, why haven't you looked at Alex Ferguson? I don't got a particular connection that interests me about Alex Ferguson, which has nothing against him. It's just it hasn't. I need to if I'm going to read everything about someone for several months, and it's something that sparks me off something that's interesting. And I haven't just got that with that.
So if you're, if you're interested in a coach, look deeply see if you can learn something more deeply. These turning points in these key influences show us that we can get a deeper understanding. We're thinking critically about coaching careers. When you look at somebody else's coaching Korea, their practical wisdom informs your practical wisdom. I can read about a coach and think are like that. I'm gonna try that. Because I'd never do that. That's not me. So it can paradoxically by by getting a better understanding of legendary coaches, we can perhaps understand ourselves more. And when you think it was I'll think of this theorist in a minute. Carl Rogers I think Carl Rogers said When you know yourself You can change yourself anything. So if we get to know ourselves more by looking at these coaches, then we can adapt our practice suitably as well. And think about how we might change things. And as I said earlier, I think the greatest quality of coaches is adaptation at any level. So I think we can gain deeper insight. And I think one of the byproducts of that is a heightened awareness. And if we've got heightened awareness, we're almost talking about the mindfulness of learning from legendary coaches, right, because we were sensitized to learning from the stories and from other things, and maybe we're motivated by a quick story. Typically, I'll do the two hour talk. So I've got a series of things I've gone through, and I've got a series of key messages I'm trying to get across. But often people will come up to me afterwards, and I really enjoyed that. Why did you enjoy it? And I took this away, they said, and they tell me and I'm going, okay, that's really interesting. And I'm thinking, wow, I didn't intend that. But isn't that fascinating. So, when you're telling a story, you've got to leave some gaps for people to bring themselves to it. Almost like the gaps between the notes in music. You know, there's, there's got to be something where someone can make their own connections. And I love that. I think that is a wonderful thing, when people tell me what they got from it, and I didn't intend it at all. And sometimes they're really rich and interesting, and take us on another tangent.[PB3]
Paul Barnett 51:25
And the gaps between the notes and music is it is a wonderful place for us to finish. David, it's been fascinating talking to you. I can't wait to our next conversation and hearing more about what you've learned from from some of these very special individuals. I can't wait to learn more from what you've got to say and, and find ways that we might be able to all apply it to to our own teams and family. So thank you so much for your time tonight. David,
David Turner 51:51
thank you. It's been a pleasure.