alf edit
Mon, Jul 08, 2024 7:24AM • 39:00
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
coach, game, learned, player, alf, football, charlie, kid, coaching, skills, taught, bain, work, bobby robson, japan, ball, world, jurgen, team, influenced
SPEAKERS
Alf, Paul Barnett
Paul Barnett 00:00
Alf galistian, Hello, good morning, good evening, and welcome to the great coaches podcast,
Alf 00:06
boys, my pleasure. I've listened to your podcast. I think you've had some terrific people, so it's an honor for me to be with you.
Paul Barnett 00:15
Thank you. Thank you, Al, for listening. I could I ask you, though, where you are in the world and what you've been doing so far today?
Alf 00:23
Yes, so I'm in my home in Wimbledon, and grand grandfather duty taking the kids to school, two of them, two of the boys, and I think that's my new career. Paul,
Paul Barnett 00:41
well, you have made a career out of teaching kids, so we're going to get all into that through this interview. But I want to start Alf. If we could just, can we just start by name, check, checking, there's arson Venga. You've worked with Sir Alex Ferguson, Jared Julia, and we were just talking about Eddie Jones, of course, and there's a pile of other coaches that I can see that you've had interactions with when I was when I was researching and preparing for today. But Alf, you've seen the truly great ones up close. What do you think they do differently that sets them apart?
Alf 01:17
Paul, can I pick four people? Because no disrespect to all the others in these 40 years, but I'm the first person, my dear friend, Gerald Julio, who I miss every day. So Gerald, in 94 when France didn't qualify the World Cup, invited me to a national training center called Claire Fontaine. It's just outside Paris, and Gerald wanted to revamp the whole French football education, and he's wonderfully successful. They won two World Cups and euros under him. But what he did with two things which taught me a lot. One is that he, with the half an ounce notice, asked me to make a presentation to every French national team coach. Included Amy jack, a the women's national coach under 17. I mean, the who, who French football. And he gave me, I think 14 boys, I think an elk and Henri were in that group. And I had 45 minutes to present why I thought curva could be good. Curva coaching, which I'm the co founder, could be good for France. And taught me two things. One, that Gerald was after consensus he wouldn't force things, even though he's highly qualified. He was a technical director of France. He could have just said, Look, we're going to do this. He didn't want to do that. He wanted consensus. So I think I learned that. And the second thing is that when he introduced me, he opened up with a line that I stole, and he said, when somebody, when you were just bringing someone in, they say they know there's nothing you can teach them. And I always sort of that resonated with Nina and all my career in for almost 40 years, and since I met Geralt, too, was that I don't know, and that equals I need to learn. And even at this late age, you know, I'm at the end of my career. I'm curious, and so he influenced me there. The second person was Christine Lily, legend in world, you know, women's football, two time Olympic gold, two time World Cup champion. And Christine was a curva kid in our American program, and first met her when she was 12 or 13. Anyway, she's the mother of two teenagers now, and I've mentored her, and she taught me the value of the women's game, the potential of the women's game. The third one was Jurgen klinsman, one of the smartest and to me, the nicest people in football. And when Jurgen was coached with Munich, I was a coach's educator, and so what Jurgen taught me was the importance of the mental component of the game, obviously having, you know, limited education, and, you know, I certainly didn't really appreciate the importance of the mental component of the of the four components, technical, tactical, physical and Jurgen, sort of, sort of really, sort of impressed me to follow that. And the last one is Arsen Wenger, who is one of the smartest people I've met in any field of life. I mean, he could have done anything. Of course, he was a legend at Arsenal and everything. But so our conversations since he left arsenal, especially, I've known him many years. Of course, I first met him in Japan when he was a coach there and I was working in Japan. But this topic of emotion. Intelligence, and we'll get into it a bit later, because it's one of the topics I'm interested in. But it's, again, the mental side of the game. And what does it mean? Well, it means things like resilience and not giving up and dealing with losing and things that happen in life too. So arson had big impact on me in that way. We're going
Paul Barnett 05:23
to get into Europe. We're going to get into emotional intelligence in Japan, and all of those things later on. But let's, let's just start at the beginning. I mean, you, you were a professional player, knee operations, cut your career short. You got into coaching. But it was, it was an encounter with the great English coach, Bobby Robson, that really gave you momentum. Could you tell us about that? Well,
Alf 05:47
if I can backtrack a little bit, so when I was 16, I did sign for Wimbledon, my local club. I didn't get a professional contract. I had two knee operations at that time, and needlessly. I'm sure some of your listeners have been through 1000s of sort of life situations. Unfortunately, my mother died in that year, and she never wanted me to be a footballer. So I had that that was, that was a double sort of Whammy, you know, the two knee operations at 16 and then. But I was at the club, I played in first team at 17 in some pre seasons, but early on, I went to Harley Street's famous place in London for doctors, and there was no way I could play and train at the same time. So three years of kind of depression. And so what brought me back into more than three years? It was a guy called Stanny Matthews, probably the greatest one v1 player of all time. I mean, I'm biased. And I met Stan through my brother and and he was saying, Well, okay, you can't play. Why don't you coach say I need 23 or 22 or whatever. Where 24 whatever I was? And he said, No, no, no. You know you can show skills because you've got the skill. You know how to show skills, you know, and so Stan Matthews, huge influence. Then I met Charlie Cook, the greatest player for Chelsea, I think, in my view, almost 50 years ago in America, where I tried to play again, and we both married American wives, and Charlie sort of encouraged me. And then will cover, of course, in 83 and then I was into it, you know, I started trying to get my licenses, and I got into it. So I've got to start with those three now, Bobby Robson, in 84 brought will kerver, who's inspired Charlie and I to start Kerber coaching, to live asshore. And I was doing my full badge in those days. In the qualification you had the full badge was like your your your main license. And it was a place called lewishaw in England. It was a national training headquarters of the English FA and Bobby Robson. Bobby brought will cover of this great Dutch coach who had these new ideas, and at the presentation on the first day, Will said two things. One is that the ball is a foundation of the game, and I'd never heard that. And two that in the formative years, eight to 14 say, you as a coach, as a teacher, you're not working on the team, you're working on the individual. And I never heard that either. And so for three weeks, I sat next to him at breakfast and just and I called Charlie. In those days, Charlie and I had a soccer camp in the US, you know, we were trying in America was very common. And I said, Charlie, I think we can have a theme for our caps, you know, to be different. And so I spoke to will anyway, while I was at literature and long and short story, we offered him some money for the rights. And will didn't want to be involved in any business. He'd got a job in Dubai, and I bought the rights for what's now known as curva coaching. So one misunderstanding was, will was with us. He didn't. Will wasn't with us. It was Charlie and I that founded curva coaching in 84 and will went to Dubai, and of course, I remained close with will until his death. But curva coaching was started by me and Charlie, based on, luckily, Bobby bringing will to Lee Shaw.
Paul Barnett 09:47
Now that business has taken you all over the world. I mean you, your bio says you've worked in over 30 countries, 17 different football federations and over 50 professional clubs. And there's the who's who in their. Arsenal, Real Madrid and so on. I'm really interesting, Alf, as you've gone through, you know, you're a global citizen, and I'm wondering what this experience has taught you about the art and science of communication.
Alf 10:17
Can I, Paul, can I pick one country again, because we'll be here for, you know, 30 odd years of 30 countries, Japan, absolutely hugely influenced me. The culture influenced me. And so if I, if I pick on that with communication. So, so let's, let's say there's three types, right? One is verbal communication, and how the Japanese are so courteous, and how they speak to each other and that respect. But that communication can you know, that bonding, that it can have? Also, as a teacher of football, I learned long time ago, I was used. When I started coaching, I was used I'm maybe still useless, but I was useless. Then in that I used to talk too much, stop everything too early, and I learned that there's an art to teaching and that speak at the right time, right place, and sometimes don't speak. And Japan taught me that silence is really valuable[PB1]
in Japan, you know? I mean, I've been in meetings in Japan where one guy's haven't said anything. I mean, I went to one meeting, one of the coach was asleep, and in that way, to ask my Japanese interpreter, the guy's asleep, she's all out. And that's very that means he's thinking, you know, so, yeah, silence can be equality. The second thing is body language. So, you know, if you're a coach, especially with young players, they can sense, you know, if you're stooping down, you don't look at them. I mean, in Japan, one of the I was there almost 25 years that they're very shy and very modest and very humble, and sometimes they don't look at you in the eye. So one of the things I had to very talented coaches was to say, to look please understand that when you look at somebody in the eye, then you're communicating. So he's trying to be clear, simple, simple, short and clear, right? And the final thing about communication, as a football coach, as maybe any sports coach, maybe a business coach, is you demonstrate, demonstration. So I'll give you example for cur in curve coaching, we have 70 711 v1 moves that one, v1 is when you beat a player, right? So I mean, who needs 77 I'm not saying any player needs 77 but over 40 years, child and I have devised 7070, 1v ones, so you can't talk that, or you can't talk first touch, receiving the ball, or you can't talk passing. You've got to be able to show it. And so one thing I did in Japan was work with a lot of ex professional players who had the skills to demonstrate and because I feel that that was a form of communication. Now, I don't want to put any grassroots coaches, or if you're injured and you you feel, you know, I'm not saying you've got to be a demonstrator. To be a great coach, a good demonstrator. You can always use one of the players. But I do feel it's a form of communication, you know, seeing that rather than talking, you know, like I said when I started, I just used to talk so much, and then I learned in Japan. No, yeah, this is, this is more
Paul Barnett 13:36
ALF on the website, you list out the core beliefs of curva coaching. And there's one of them that really caught my eye. You say, the success of any team system, tactic or formation ultimately depends on the quality of the individual player skills and the effectiveness of their small group play. It's the back end of that that really caught my eye, you know, the small team play, because there's many people listening who are in these small teams that are part of larger teams in work and in this sporting life. And I'm wondering if you could tell us what you've learned about this effectiveness of small team play and why it's so important to you.
Alf 14:16
Yes, So traditionally, again, I'm talking about football, but I hear what you're saying, Paul, I think you can apply to all sports, and maybe outside sports, it's traditionally football's 1111, after 12 years old, globally, right? And Charlie and I thought many years ago, well, that's not what's you could interpret it another way. You could say that the game is where the ball is. And that's not 1111, that's 3v one, 4v two. And you know, one, v1 sometimes, and the ball moves, and it's another contest. And that's what I mean by small group play and and we see the game through. Well, you've got to have these individual skills in tight space. Races, and it's not 11, it's these small groups working together, and if they work effectively together. And the second part was that use the ball as bait, so that the idea is to get the other team to come in and press you, and then you move the ball to another area, and you try to get advantage of other team, either numerically, so 3v one or 2v one or whatever, or you've got a very good technical player who maybe, like a Ronaldo, can play, or messy maybe, who's got who can play one v1 and that's also an advantage so that one v1 2v two is a pure small team game, in my view. So that was what I meant by the importance of small group play in relation to teaching the team game of 1111, which is what football after 12 years old is. So we came up, we call it the Curva box trap in that, in that box is where we attack, and in that box is where we try to win the ball. Hence the trap. And when we ball, win the ball, then, then leading onto the Kirby box. Trap is this idea, and I think it's here for the future, is that the game is will be one of possession which is difficult, but then that's our job as coaches, to give the players the interview game core skills so they can play that game. They dominate the game by possession of the ball. Wow,
Paul Barnett 16:38
fascinating. Can we? Can I take you from this idea of small box play to this work you do with Dr Peter Bain? Now I've been researching him in preparation for today. He's one of the world's top neurologists, and I know he's really influenced your thinking on unconscious, automatic skills. Is how I think I've heard you describe them. Can you? Can you tell us about this philosophy and potentially what you've learned that people can apply to their own lives? Yes,
Alf 17:09
well, of course, I'm, you know, as you say, Paul, he is, I think, one of the world's author Well, here's the world authority on motor disorders, movement disorders. I think he's written more papers on on Parkinson's and movement disorders, etc. I met him one day by chance in Starbucks 15 years ago, and he recognized me. Got one of our videos, and I didn't realize he was a UA for B, licensed coach. And so that's that's fast forward. I meet him when I can, when I'm in England on Wednesdays in Barnes for coffee. I've learned more from this guy than not any great coach, but but any great teacher. And again, I was saying how Jurgen and arson have influenced me on the power of the mind, the importance of the mind. Well, Peter closed, you know, ticked all the boxes for me.
And a couple of things. One is, how does the brain learn skills? So he told me that what we were doing curva in our drill, DNA about repetition, and then repetition, and then complexity of repetition, and then speed of repetition was how the brain then wired the memory of the skill in the brain. And then the Curva method being a step by step, increasingly difficult, you know. So you start easy and make it more difficult. Actually, was what the brain liked. And was able to fire off all the neurons that connected very effectively and efficiently. And so he gave support to curva. That science support to curva. [PB2]
But was also very interesting for me and Charlie, because we were on the right track. I mean, how we got on the right track? God knows, but, but, but we intuitively. I think we understood that when you've teaching a skill, you've got to sort of progress on to where it's under full pressure, as it would be in their match day or game day. And Peter confirmed that. And then the second thing that he explained to us, because skill without decision making is not effective in the game, was how the brain processes decision making. I He said, Well, look, this is what unless the brain's damaged, this is what happens. You know, you look so what you look for? You look for your teammate, you look at the opposition, you look for space, and then you decide, and then you do or you don't do. And so why was that important? Not not academically important, but it gave Charlie and I a clue on. Our drill DNA that we had to sort of evolve and make drills and and games that actually incorporate what Dr Bain was saying into our skill teaching. You
Paul Barnett 20:14
said something interesting than the Ralph. You said, how you learned about all this God knows. I I think just from reading about you, you've just got a thirst for learning. I mean, you mentioned it in the start. We talked about curiosity. I think you've just got a hyperactive thirst for learning. And I I wonder whether you see that in yourself, or whether it's something that you don't see potentially as being one of your many, one of your superpowers.
Alf 20:45
So I'm curious, and I'm motivated so and I'm, you know, I'm not young, I'm in my late 70s, so maybe that's a real Peter Dr baton saying, Look, one of the reasons, and maybe this is a lesson, Paul, you got many, many more years. Maybe this is a lesson, right? Pete's always saying, the mind's a muscle, right? And I've exercised and I exercise that muscle, but something must be motivating me, and I think it's curiosity, and the fact that what my dear friend Gerald was always saying was, I don't know, so I still I've got to say to you now, once I know, then my curiosity will disappear. And therefore I'm always trying to remind myself, I don't I think about this the way I describe the box out Kirby box trap, or the 40 years of drills and games Charlie and I have devised. You know, I've got to keep saying it could be better. We could know more. And so it's really a decision to have a frame of mind that remains curious, because once that disappears, like my wife and daughter always say, it's time to retire, and my son says, No, don't dad. So I'm going to go with Jim. I
Paul Barnett 22:20
think that's a good idea. I've interviewed multiple coaches in their late 70s, and their energy to learn and find new way not just learn, but to then bring that learning into the bear and the way they innovate is is a common theme, whether it's Eddie Reese with swimming. I mean, I spoke to Sir Graham Henry, just a couple of weeks ago, trying to think at the top of my head other people in their 70s. Well, Mr Buchanan, I don't think he's quite 70 yet. He probably won't like me saying that, but I think it is a it is a trait that's there, this ability to go from learning of curiosity to learning, then to innovation. But Alf, Can I switch gears a little bit? Because I want to, I want to potentially take this in a slightly different direction. You, I've got this great quote from you. You say the coach is in control of the pressure on the player. Now, I wanted to extrapolate this a little bit, because a bit of a theme this day, these these days, I am an executive coach as well, and I this idea of putting pressure on people and finding the right level of pressure is a big it's the world is changing quite rapidly. In this space, there's a lot of American coaches getting sued because they put too much pressure on people. Yes, I wonder what you've learned about the most effective way to apply pressure without overstepping the line and going too far.
Alf 23:48
Yes, so because in coaching, we focus on really six to 16 years old, and therefore you start on the basis that it's love of the game that you've got to sort of light that fire of love of the game, those age groups that they might stay in the game. So if you like something, you do it more, and you do it more, you get better. So then, as a teacher on the practice field, which I'm mostly interested in, rather Match Day is then the DNA of what you're teaching between in football is the drills and games has to be enjoyable to that player. It's so that they Well, that fun and they like it, and then that motivates them to and they're easier to teach. So you've got to remember the age groups. So these groups are different from six to eight years old, and what you do from eight to 11, what you do from 12 to 16, what you do. And therefore it has to whatever your drill DNA, your lesson planning, your session planning, has to be appropriate to their age group and their level. Say to professional academies, boys and girls are going. Saying, I say girls, most of these boys going to professional academies in all the countries I've worked with. And you won't believe it's poor. Some being identified as six years old, which I think is absolutely that's bizarre, but let's say it's happening. But then, you know, at these, I suppose eight, let's say eight to 12 years old. So you know what you teach an eight you to 12 year old. How you teach them is going to be different from when they're 1314, 1516, physicality and hormones and everything kick in, and then 17 plus is probably the last age group development age group. So it has to be appropriate. And again, you got to divide that into grassroots, you know, kids who, know, become professional players, and but 99% of the world play for fun, and how you can give them that fun, that the enjoyment, and keep in the game, and then very the 1% that have a chance, and even that 1% only 1% of them ever become pros. But you have to then change your lesson planning like any teacher, I guess, or any business person dealing with training of people. And then in Kerber, we've got what Charlie and I divided call the Curva skills Bridge, which is the Curva method. And the Curva method is step by step.
So let's say, for example, passing. So you repeat the passing, and then you you have a second as you're crossing the bridge to go over the bridge. So first of all is repetition. Was you got no challenge, you just repeat it, and then you've got something called graduated pressure training. So graduate pressure is where the coach is in control of pressure. And to your question, that I control how far the defender is from the attacker, or can the defender tackle? Even it's called limited pressure training, so defender doesn't tackle, it just stands off. So I'm in control, and then you've got to go to full pressure. So the players in control there. So Coach control, Coach control, player control. And over the their their education, you know, if you like kindergarten, university, you go through that process, and sometimes you find in grassroots is difficult to coach because the kids are mixed ability. [PB3]
And with no disrespect to my professional colleagues, when you're working with professional players, it's not so difficult, because they're all about same level. You can imagine grassroots. You've got some kid who wants to be there and some kid who doesn't want to be there, and you've got to deal with that. So with that. So in one way, dealing professionals is a little bit easier, in my opinion, and so the curve skills Bridge is a way of then the coach being in control, and then letting that control go. And now, can't tell you if it's two months or two years, or what, how long it would take, but it's a process. And I think the best example I can give you is, you know, kindergarten, you do something, you go to primary school, then you go to high school, and then you go to university. And I think you've got to deal with these young players, which curve coaching is involved with development of young players is exactly in that way.
Paul Barnett 28:26
Now, if you started then by talking about six year olds being identified as future talents, but you do talk a lot about talent pathways for athletes. You do, you do address it in a lot of your your written articles and a lot of the podcasts I've heard you on, what have you learned about the right way to create talent pathways for people in teams or organizations?
Alf 28:51
Well, so if let's go with a I've worked with so many professional academies as coaches, instructors, the coaches there, and so I think there's commonality. So players are identified. Now, I've got to also say that I won't pick a particular club, but let's, let's say top pro club, and so they'll identify a boy. Or let's, let's stick to boys at the moment, but girls, of course, too, at eight or nine. And it depends if that player has a good day or good days and when they're watching him, because for every one kid they pick, there's 50, I would say to you, as good as that kid. So there's a lot of luck involved in kids being selected for academies, right? And also in my long career, I think I've seen one player that I was right about at under 12 become a top professional. So it's a very difficult all sorts of things happen after 12 years old. It gets many social things, as much as physical things. US. So this prediction is very difficult to predict. And then I think, you know, once you accept that factor of luck, then it's a question of, what's a DNA of the player that you you've got to identify.
So do you want them to be fast, quick, skillful? I mean, you all those things you want, right? And so what I what I think that we should do better on and when I give when I go and work at pro clubs, is not always looking for the boy or girl who, especially at the young ages, can sort of driven past five players and score a goal all the time, and look for the kid that passes the ball before that understands what to do with the ball before they get it those few seconds. And those, those boys, I'll say boys aren't no noticeable. Coaches don't notice them a lot because they're not they just get the ball impossible. And of course, they're not noticeable. But those, those kids that can and get to Dr Bain's point about the mental the power of the decision making, or the importance of decision making, it's not when you get the ball, but it's the kids that actually are able to while the ball's traveling to them see, well, I'm going to run, I'm going to shoot, I'm going to pass. I've seen a few boys like that and but when you actually see them playing for their you know, top teams, their academy teams, they don't stand out. They don't beat four players and score a goal. And I would just urge coaches look, because football's a team game and it's and I think passing and receiving is past and future. Look for those kids who've got this game, what Gerald used to define as game intelligence before they they look at that. They get the ball, that they're all looking for the options. [PB4]
And what Dr Peter and with Arsen Wenger also have been discussing his topic about scanning. It's a very popular topic now in football, just a fancy word of looking around. And I think we've got to be a bit more definite about that too. So yes, of course, the more looks as Dr Bain says that all the all the information comes through the eyes and then the brain processes it. So obviously looking is fundamental, but I think a little more specific is, yes, you look around. I mean, if your team's got the ball, scanning when your team's got ball and when your team hasn't got the ball, but let's say your team's got the ball, then probably the most important scans is as the ball's traveling to you, not when the ball is with your teammate, if that makes sense, but as it's traveling. You make multiple scans. Maybe when the ball is with your teammate, you don't have to make so many scans. So I think you know that can all be fed in the DNA to drill.
Paul Barnett 33:25
Fascinating. I Alf, perhaps if I could just ask one final question, and I like to preface it with another quote, If I could you say, as long as you believe what you teach, then you become a good teacher, because that's what a coach is really, especially in development. So it just prompted me to want to ask you, how you hope the many, many people you've helped around the world will describe your teaching and coaching.
Alf 33:56
Can I do this in three parts? I guess course you can. Yeah. Yeah. So the first thing is, follow, I suggest this notion that there's always something to learn, and that that, you know, you can go, you can have the most brilliant teacher. And you know, I've found this in all the great people I've met outside football too, is this curiosity that I'm saying to you. So you know, I'd like people to think that that's always remained with me, and that all the work Charlie and I've done over these 40 years has been because we believe in something, and in the end, it's our opinion, and that you can't say, Well, this is it, because once you say, this is the more to learn. So that's the first thing. And then I think maybe in between, age. Six or 16 redefine what winning means. And so I know it's every competitive sport. You know, winning is a score, isn't it a lot, or measured by the time or whatever? So yeah to nothing. Yes, we win the game. But between those ages 616 maybe redefine, especially to parents and other coaches, that winning can also be defined in terms of the kid improves. So, you know, like I did a interview podcast Few days ago with my friend Chris Ramsey, who's a Chris passer and Tottenham. And Chris was saying, Well, yes, when you're in class, and if you your kid, your boy and girl, your daughter, son and daughter get 80% in maths. You don't care if another kid gets 30% you care that your kid gets 80% and and so that's winning, and if my grandsons and granddaughter improve in football, and I can anecdotally, so because I try to watch them when I'm not working, I don't really care about Scott. I care if Jack or Jesse or Aaron or Joe is improving. So redefining winning and then also explaining what the value of mistakes that, again, I learned in Japan, and also just been to Argentina, and I did a podcast with Messi coach, and talking about Messi, especially with my favorite player, and just, you know, what's the mindset of such an exceptional person? And I think it's that focus, that concentration, which comes again, because we've got another podcast, Dr Bain and I did with Zidane and Messi, discussing different aspects, and you could see their love of the game, sort of saying is, you can't beat that. Everything starts from the love of the game. And the message coach was telling me that with Messi, it's just a game, yeah, okay, all the success has come. Just loves the game. And if you can maintain that love, where you lose your way, I think sometimes is where other things replace that, love and so and I think finally, without boring you finally, I think that football is more than a game with all the terrible things happening. It could be a form of communication. You know, even if you don't speak the same language. Like I've said to you, I was in Argentina, speak Spanish. I speak no Spanish. In Japan, all my work in Italy, I speak no Italian. But we communicate. And so it is the most with no respect to other sports. It just, it is the it's a it's a language now, a global language, and I think that we should use it for that.
Paul Barnett 38:07
Alf, I love this idea of losing your way when other things replace your love of the game. I think that's a such an applicable statement for all of us in all aspects of life. So thank you so much for spending a little bit of time with us and taking us through your journey. It's absolutely fascinating some of the people you've interacted with on that that long journey. And I wish you all the best for well, running those grandkids around to their soccer practice.
Alf 38:35
Paul, thank you, and I love it. Like I said, I listened to your podcasts. You've got some fascinating people. I'm learning also, I'm taking things from them. I really do think that other sports, certainly in football, we can learn from other sports. Unlike Eddie Jones and I discussed, you know, you know rugby and football, you can, we can learn from each other.
Paul Barnett 38:55
Thank you. Alf, my pleasure. Do.