andre lemanis edit
Sat, Apr 13, 2024 9:27AM • 51:27
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
coach, players, team, andre, new zealand, guess, good, played, give, win, game, question, spoke, story, practice, people, influence, season, japan, shots
SPEAKERS
Paul Barnett, Andrej Lemanis
Paul Barnett 00:00
Andre Lamar says Good afternoon, and welcome to the great coaches podcast.
Andrej Lemanis 00:07
Paul, thanks for having me on. Seeing the list of coaches you've had on this pod cast on, I guess I'm a little humbled to be included in such great company.
Paul Barnett 00:18
Andre if it's any consolation, every coach I interview says the same thing, but I appreciate you carving out some time to chatters. Could I just start with something simple? Where are you in the world? And what have you been up to so far today?
Andrej Lemanis 00:34
Yes, I'm currently in Japan in a city called Chiba, which is about 45 minutes east southeast of Tokyo, I just came back from practice this morning, I coach here, this is my third season catching Japan with a team called Al theory Chiba. And they're a team. This is the third year of this existence of being the first ever coach. The goal of the organization was the or is to reach the b1 competition and the Japan has three levels b one, b two B three. And when you enter a league as a new team, you have to start in v3. So this was a interesting project for me. Thankfully, we got through B three, one, that division together qualified, got promoted up to BT last season and had opportunities but unfortunately fell short in the semi finals series to qualify for b1. And so here we are, again, with a goal to get up to 81 is
Paul Barnett 01:35
a bit of Ted less. So in that story there, we might find that you know, you've X, you take on the same results as the Richmond FC team, and you end up winning in your third season. So I guess we'll have to wait and see what the future holds. Andre, I wanted to just start by name dropping a couple of big names. You've you've worked for Brett Brown. And you've also worked with Brian gourgeon. And there's a stacker in your background as well. They're three big names. And I'm just wondering, from this perspective, watching these guys up close, what is it you think the great coaches do differently? That sets them apart?
Andrej Lemanis 02:11
Yeah, it's a it's an interesting question. I'm obviously really fortunate to have been in interactions with those guys for my career, like very, very, very fortunate to be able to observe them and learn from them. I think they, so let me tell a different story. And you'll find I do this a lot. I just, you know, me do this with the media. You whatever questions they asked, you'd have to answer the question they asked you just, you know, give whatever answer you want to give, feel free. What are you trying to tell? So when I first got the head coaching job in New Zealand, my first NBL head coach role and I was seeking advice for some different coaches and people I respected and one of them was Gordon McLeod. And one of the things he said to me was, like, be who you are, as a coach, don't try to be somebody you're not. And at the time, I just shook my head and said, yes, yes, yes. But it came back to be relevant for me. I guess later on in in the piece when coaching you edge New Zealand first year, we were struggling were bad. And last 10 games in a row. Everybody's on me. And I was, again, set thinking searching for answers. And people like applying your play for grind white Bronco, Jim would do like this. Brian goes on with it. Like that he wouldn't accept this like it. And I was like, oh, yeah, that's right. And I was, you know, try and be more like. And I got to the end of the season, and in the place, they like some of the messages or messaging that came out was that they thought I was a bit boss, and I wasn't, they couldn't really figure out who I was. And they couldn't trust me. And because they felt I wasn't being me. And I think when you those names should talk about when I reflect on that, like Brian, Brett and Ian, they're all actually quite different in their approaches. But they're very, they're very comfortable with who they are. They buy into it, they do it, they deliver it and they consistent with it. And I think it's that consistency and the authenticity of it, that then enables the players to find a way in the build those relationships because at the end of the day, coaching is about trust. And the consistency of the approach builds that trust and enables them to have influence to get to get results and to get players to to buy in.[PB1]
Paul Barnett 04:53
I want to ask you about those three championships you want at the breakers but I'd like to go on a bit of a journey to get there because As I think the journey, in a way, is part of the story and part of the magic, I think that you eventually unlocked in yourself and your team, but can we start? Andre with your father. So he came out to Australia, in his teens he read the Wii U said he had very little English. He went, then he then went on to become one of your first coaches. How is he visible today in your leadership style.
Andrej Lemanis 05:28
It's interesting, as I reflect back on what what sort of leadership, those take from my father, and, you know, when you're young, you don't fully appreciate, I guess, the story in the journey that your parents have been on. And my father was, he lived through the Second World War. And as you get older, and you hear some of the stories about how, as a family of four, you know, they need to ration pie potatoes to get through a week, like that's what they had to eat, and how are they going to manage that situation, stories of getting out at you know, the war ends, and they're stuck in Germany and about to be sent back to the USSR and commit, you know, communism and the story of Escape to get out of that, and find a way into the American section and end up in Australia with the gunpoint at the border, you know, where your papers like all those sorts of stories that you just can't fathom, going through coming to Australia with very little English and, and poor education just because again, during the war, or that was interrupted, and so had to find a job to start supporting himself, and put himself through might school at the time. And, you know, went English and got a trade and, or got a skill, sorry, and became a chemist, and ended up having a very good job and very, living a very good life and, and being able to support and raise two kids, and we got everything that we ever wanted. But I guess the learning from that, and as I reflect on it, was he, like, when he told the stories, He never complained. It wasn't like, you know, as hard Dumbo, I was like, Oh, this is just the way that it was. And this is what we did. And this is how we overcame it. And then we got presented with the next problem. And here we go. And we found a way to overcome that. And it's sort of that that notion of just getting on with the job, I think that I've taken from him, I think, it filters through now, and I don't even think about it sometimes. I haven't thought about it until you know, you get asked questions like this, I'm very much as a coach are stuck on the process. Like, let's focus on today. sort of guy. What do we need to do today to get better? And you know, the goal, Every team wants to win the championship and all that sort of stuff. That's all great, but how do we get there. And today, what we need to do is work on our defensive transition, or we need to, you know, work, you know, get better at communicating whatever it is, like, you know, we need to come closer as a team, let's do something today, that helps us ultimately attain that goal, but let's not get lost in the hole. Let's go ahead and you know, get focused on the process. So I think that kind of when I reflect on it that comes from my dad's just willingness to just accept what is and move forward. On the bottom line, okay, that that is what is the kind of change that everyone's everyone wants to hear. Okay, good. We can't change that. So why do I bother about while you're worried about I don't, okay, let's find a way to to get better today.[PB2]
Paul Barnett 08:50
You say that you're very focused on the here and now. In yet, if I understand correctly, when you went to New Zealand, you sat down the owners and the GM and you actually put a five year vision together, you actually sat down and said, Here's where we need to be. And it was that vision that propelled those three, those three championships. I'd love to hear more. I've researched and researched and I can't find anything specifically about that vision. I'm not sure whether it's something you're happy to share or not. But I'd love to hear about what happened in that meeting and how it how it energized the group.
Andrej Lemanis 09:28
Yeah, so it was actually more than the one meeting and I gotta say the the owners, Paul was Blackwell of the New Zealand breakers were some of the nicest people you could ever meet. And you know, in every in every career, and every journey is certainly like playing a lot. Want to get critical? And I was just really, really fortunate that I was at New Zealand Another time when those two Porn was on the team. When I first signed on a, there was actually three different owners that had the team and porn was came on as sort of full timers. And as it turned, as it played out, they ended up buying out the other three owners and took on the team themselves.
And they were just unbelievable people and Brian from, I guess, just as an example, that what they believed in was building programs and investing in people. And, you know, at this stage, we weren't going very well on the floor. And when they took full ownership, first thing I did was I said, you know, you're a guy, we trust in you, we believe in you, we want you to go on the journey with us. He go, he's a new three year deal, you know, and hadn't achieved anything yet. But they wanted to give me the security of, of knowing that they are prepared to show us when other other owners would have fired me, they got behind me and invested in me, which was amazing. But so, you know, they come from back business background, and also, you know, in terms of planning and strategic plans, and all that. And they were playing that in the basketball environment, not setting those sorts of things before and I must admit, I was a bit like, oh, here we go again.
But what was different about this one, I did happen over a few days. And we had the whole board in and spoke about, you know, well, what do we want to do, we want to, like, yes, win the championship. But for them, it was also it wasn't about winning basketball games is about making a positive difference in the lives of the youth of New Zealand, that was the good come from Christian background. And they want to make a positive difference in the community. And that was really important to them. And they thought that one of the like, the reason that we needed to win was because that got you traction in the media, and get you the ability to give your messaging like the messaging of, you know, healthy lifestyles, and making good decisions as kids would carry more weight if the team was respected because we're winning. And so that was that was their motivation for doing it. And and, but what I liked about this plan is it drove like, you know, there's a drove the behaviors to get to that point. And what it did was enabled us as an organization, to stay focus clearly on on the process, which I spoke to before. You know, what have we achieved today that, that is going to keep us on this path to winning this championship, and making a difference in the lives of young kids. And I guess the the, some clean examples of that in the first year, again, we weren't achieving very, very much, unquote, in terms of results. We weren't winning. But we would review the strategic strategic plan every three months. And so what have we ticked off? What have we actually done. And one of them was that we'd formed the academy program for the, for the for the younger, elite kids in New Zealand, because we believe one of the things that we believed was that we wanted a New Zealand breakers team filled mostly with New Zealand players. Because they were good enough, they were skilled enough to make the team not just because they were born in New Zealand. But that needed investment, we needed to start the program resources, give it coaching, and that we wouldn't see the payback from that, or the rewards of that for four or five years before we start to see those kids progress into the program. And as it was in our when we're in those championship years, you look at it, there's you know, Tibor, calm, be calm, calm, and Webster, Alex pledge. The list went on and on and on. Have II to come through that breakers development program and our plan for the breakers and winning championships and you got other teams going, Oh, how can you afford all those guys? It's like, well, we actually have gotten one really good contracts because they trusted us and they want to be here. And we've invested in them from when they were young. [PB3]
The I remember after the first year. So after the second year, one of the things that we had achieved was we didn't cut an import during the season, which meant that our recruiting processes were right in the first year I was there, we're cutting the imports, and there's little you know, the chaos that happens with that and trying to replace them and the disruption that is on the team in year two, we didn't cut an important that was in our strategic yes, good means that we've improved their recruiting processes and our scouting processes. So that was a win. And so whilst the Encorp results weren't in the first couple of years, I think the strategic plan was able to keep us out of the white noise. We didn't have to listen to everybody else and what they were saying and all the people pulling the program. Internally were have to stay focused to say, well, this is what we said we wanted to achieve. And yes, we've done this. We've done this. We haven't done that. No, why? Why haven't we? And is it still relevant? Do we need to change it? And so for me, what I said was given the ability to focus on the day to day, which sounds strange, the long term plan the five year plan, but alright, what do we need to achieve the day then, you know, how do we go ahead and take something else off the plan?
Paul Barnett 15:33
It was Brian gorging who tapped you on the shoulder when you're a player and said, Andre, perhaps coaching is for you. When you look at players today, and people around you and stuff, and you start to evaluate whether they might be a good head coach, what leadership abilities are you looking for in them?
Andrej Lemanis 16:00
That's the ability to connect with people is what it is, like I said, I think earlier in the interview is coaching just about the ability to influence. You're not out there playing, you can't change that. And so all you can do is influence people, and how do you influence and people do it different ways. I believe trust is a big one building trust, that the player knows that you ultimately have their best interests at heart, and you're not in it for yourself that you're in actually to help them. And if you can get that point and build that trust with a player, then you're in a position where you can then you you really can influence and so I guess when I'm watching players now, it's that it is that how they connected with their teammates. [PB4]
And I've said it, I think in multiple interviews, you know, one of the best I've ever seen at that is CJ Britton, obviously, he's getting his chance now the other 36 years. But when he was a player, his ability to just to connect with the entire locker room, you know, from someone who come from a very wealthy background and never had a struggle in his life, he could talk to them in a way that could get them to buy in and see you know, what was best for the team, you can have a conversation with someone who grew up in a ghetto and struggling for him to fight for everything his entire life, and could talk to them in a way in a manner that enabled them to believe in the system and believe in Him and what we're doing. And like CJ Burton, I think he's one as a player won six championships. He played with fall league MVP is yet he never won an MVP himself. Because he understood that for him to get the championships, what he actually needed to do is get the best out of all the talent around him. And he sacrificed he's like, Yeah, I don't need a league MVP. I just want championships. But it's really good for us. And if he's the league MVP, and this is how I can make you be the MVP, like he was just magnificent. At that understanding how teams and dynamics work, and being able to build those relationships that he could influence. So he's one of the best, there's actually a kid out of Columbia kid, he's 3435. Now my Japanese team, he's a veteran in the group and just I noticed with him his ability, and obviously the cultures are different. And that's been an interesting observation and learning for me and but just the his ability to influence and connect, and he does it differently. The CJ, he's, you know, again, just because the culture is different, and how he doesn't get the respect that he gets from everybody in the team. But part of it comes is because, again, he's willing to take the time to, to give I've never seen a veteran player like him, hang around after practice and work with the young guys. Like he'll, we'll practice for two plus hours, everybody's tired. One of the things about the Japanese is they do put in the work for sure. 100%. And so it's expected and particularly when you're young. But after practice, you go and you do another hour on your own and just shooting and ball handling all that, and he will after a tough practice. Not every practice, but once a week, you'll get on here work with one of the young guys and you know, talk to him about some things and give him a hand to shoot over and rebound the ball for him and like just amazing but because he's given of that time, and he's, you know, he's saying the play this is investing in and then when he needs something from a player, he doesn't talk to him about it. He's able to have that influence because the player knows he devalues him and he's he's got that trust within that relationship. And so for me that's what it is. That's it's seeing people obviously they need a basketball IQ but it's the other story right around sorry ask one question. I go this is this is how I am. You know, this the story I think Manny Clark told me this one about basketball coaching when you start that up as a coach, you you want drills, drills, drills, drills, drills, give me drills, give me drills. And then after why stuck? Can you teach me something about the tactics? Like, you know, what are some of the offensive structures? And then some of the defensive structures? And what are the what are the different methods and we start going down that path, and then you start to get in a little bit competent with that. And then usually, the third stage is, how do I handle the players? What do I do with this guy's you know, he's all grumpy and cranky? How do I What do I do? How do I get him to play together and believe in each other? And if, in essence, that needs to be flipped the other way around? Like, the most important thing is, how do you influence the players? How do you build that relationship? Then the X's and O's, you know, offensive and defensive structures are flow? That's actually pretty easy. And then the drills flow out of that, like, Yeah, but if you don't have the relationship with the players, and you can't influence it doesn't matter how good you are at X's and O's. That's not gonna happen for it.
Paul Barnett 21:11
Andre, I heard you say recently, did you feel that you have a lot more control if the head coach by giving up control? And I'm really intrigued, where did this come from?
Andrej Lemanis 21:23
Yeah, really, that's another really long story.
Paul Barnett 21:25
I'm not going anywhere.
Andrej Lemanis 21:30
So, again, in New Zealand, you know, first few seasons, we weren't going so well. I've already told the story about you know, people telling me I need to be more like Brian GORGEOU. And, and Brian's a very, he's a strong coach, like he's strong personality can can command a room, he can go at people. And I was like, I was doing some layout, I was getting hard. I was the I was trying to stay on top of everything and not letting anything slip. And because you know, some of the feedback is a little too much slip, and I'm on everything. And I'm grumpy all the time. I'm and again, at the end of the season, I got some of that feedback that it's that feel like you're kind of not really not being false about who you are. And there's like, yeah, you're right. That didn't feel right. It didn't feel comfortable. Like PBI players know, you know, people, people, people read body language, all that sort of stuff. So they know.
And then we started, again, searching for answers. And we've got different motivational speakers in and all that sort of stuff. And you know, some of this whole above the line below the line thinking and none of it actually sat very well with me because it was random people coming in didn't know anything about our team or our organization. And were telling us how we needed to run our business or our team. And this is how we needed to act. And I was like, Why? Why is that applicable here? It doesn't make any sense to me. And then we ended up getting on to the group. And I know they've been in the media a lot. And everybody knows a lot about them now but leading teams. And I remember the first session with leading teams we we all got in the room was like here we go again, he's someone else who's going to tell us about how we need to run our team and the the facilitator stood up and said before he had gotten introduced himself before you going Are there any questions and Phil Jones, one of our veterans on our team, we go I love who's but he was someone who's happy to sort of have a bit of a go and and push the boundaries. He said, You know, you got leading teams on his shirt. What is this about? Like, why are we here we picking a captain, what are we doing? And the facilitator said, Thank you, Phil, that's a very good question. How many games have you played in the NBL? And I feels like whatever. 200 And then we go out there play how many games have you played and we had Tony Robbins on our team at that point. And he's, you know, the, he's played the most of the games in the NBA, I think at that stage is maybe 580. And so he goes around, he tells his abs Alright, so there's over 2000 games of experience in this room and you want me to tell you how to run your team. No wonder you guys are struggling. And for me, that was the aha moment that he's different like this. This isn't about him telling us how to run the team. This is about the team figuring out how to run itself. And so that started us I guess down that path of what started me sorry, down that path and the team down the path of by you can call it empowerment but I call it more engagement and the ability to have input. And then when players again when they have the Important, they've had a say in how we're going to run and manufacture things, then they're much more accountable to it. [PB5]
And they can't hide behind. You know, the, again, the first year, it's like, well, we had a bad year, and players are like, well, this is what you wanted to do. He told us to do all this stuff, it didn't work. This is all a new coach. Whereas, as we started to go down this line, I felt that it was certainly more more the ownership set amongst across the entire team, because the players had had some input. And you know, when you break it down to a guess at a more micro level, we're talking about a scouting situation and the players like but what if I chase over instead of under? What do you think that's like, you want to do that? He's like, Yeah, I think that'd be smart. Good, do that. And then in the game, sure, as hell when he does that, he, he makes sure that it works, right? He suggested. And so he's more committed and determined some bragging that actually work because he was like the one who said, I think this is a good idea. And so as that permeates out, and you give players the ability to, to have input, have influenced, take ownership, assisting coaches, the same thing, give them more authority, give them more responsibility. What I found was, you know, when you're sitting back after that, first, I guess, I had the sort of lightbulb moment after the you in the first champion, championship, and everybody's sitting around and sharing stories and having a drink at a barbecue. And you start to find out about some of the things that happened off court. That never got to my level, because one of the senior players or an assistant coach, or the team manager, had stomped it on its head before it got out of control, or elevated to a point where now the head coach had to get involved and deal with it. And that's when I started to say, Okay, this is something about this here, where I've given up, you know, what, what felt like I gave up a lot of control, because sometimes I didn't know everything that was going on in the organization. But I actually felt that they gave me more control, because I didn't have to do everything. Like, you know, everybody was pulling us in the right direction. And so that's, I guess, what I meant by that comment. You know, it's interesting, there's, is there's, again, in matam, New Zealand, like, we have come, coaches come visit with us, and I always open the door. And anytime anyone wants to come visit, if anyone's coming, having movies swinging by Chiba, Japan, they want to come to this in practice sessions, always welcome to come in. But had a young coach, come and spend a week with us in New Zealand, he just got a head coaching role in New Zealand MBL. And this was, you know, right in the peak of that time, when we're going down this path of planning, player, player engagement. And he watched it all and watched me asking questions of players and involving them in the process and using a writing writing a bunch of notes. And then he went away for his season and didn't have a great season and came back the next year. And I said to him, I said, I had you first had to go the first year. And you know, did you implement any of the things that you did here or learned here? And it's in? It's interesting. You said, you know, I went down that whole path, and I tried to engage with the players and ask them questions. And after the first couple of months, I kind of had to drift away from and I got away from it, because the players thought I didn't know what I was doing. And that's why I was always asking them what they thought, you know, there's so there's always the bounce. And it's part of a it's who knows what the what the actual formula is, and what we actually provision is, but there is there is an art to getting it. Right,
Paul Barnett 28:59
Andre, what intrigues me about basketball is the coach is almost like the sixth player. Because you're very, you're very close to the action. You can call the plays. You can communicate directly with the players given your learnings that you've just talked about this balance between questioning and directing where do coaches get it wrong? courtside?
Andrej Lemanis 29:29
Well in basketball I can speak to that is getting lost in referees, like getting distracted by things that don't make a difference. And that you can't control and that certainly when I reflect on my game, certainly in my early days and still happens to me now is there are times when you review the video and you're like, why? Because this is another thing right is that I had a good learning moment. When I was sitting there and we're watching, doing a video session, I was like, you know, getting on, we were not getting back in defensive transition here. And like, we didn't rotate on this situation. And like we met, we messed up this matchup. And one of the players said to me, he said, Coach, this is all good. But why didn't you tell us at the time? Like, why are you telling us on the video? As a that's a great question. Like, what a wonderful question, because I don't know, like, I'm missing something, right? This is I'm not doing my job.
My job is to help you guys. And as I reflected on that question, and one of them was because I was too worried about the referees, I was getting lost in trying to yell at them and engage with them and influence them. And that wasn't, that's not helpful. And so I got back to trying to do my job, which was actually be useful to the players. And so, again, where the coaches get it wrong, I mean, I don't know what it gets. It's, at the end of the day can't keep coming back is are you able to? Are you able to influence positively? Can you make a difference, and whether that's with tactics, something that you see that can make a difference with your team? Offensively defensively, players see it, they see us, they see us make a change, and good things happen. And that builds confidence and trust, the way you communicate with the players, can you give them confidence when they need confidence? Can you pick them up when they need to be picked up? Can you push the button at the right time when you need to push a button and you know, you can, again, if you built trust, and a player truly believes that you have their best interests at heart, you can go to them when you need to go with them. But you need to know them to be able to do that stuff to get the reaction that you're after. And to get the positive outcomes that you're after. So it's interesting because again, how the two fit together, it's you know, I talked about to be a good coach, you need to be who you are. And if you're yelling and screaming, you can be yell and scream. And that's not who I am. But if you yell and scream, I think you really need to be mindful of how you've built those relationships and that trust so that you can, so the players can continue to have like confidence in themselves and in you and what we're doing as a team. [PB6]
I think coaches can get to negative on situations, they can get negative on the game, they can get negative on plays negative on players, I think that happens. And I keep coming back to not being in the moment. And you can get distracted by a lot of things. And if the only thing you can control is what's happening on this possession, you know, or my communication with this player right now. That's all I can control. And so staying clear enough of mine, so you can stay in the moment.
Paul Barnett 33:02
Andre, when it comes to learning, you've written and spoken about the importance of creating the right content context for people to adapt to, I've seen you give seminars on it seems to be something that is very, very close to your center of your philosophy. How does this idea shape the training environments you create?
Andrej Lemanis 33:22
So when I was the head coach of the national team, in my first appointment, I was the full time head coach. And that may that led me to Canberra and to the IRS. And there's a whole myriad of resources there that I didn't know existed previously. And I was intrigued by lots of things. I've always kind of been, as I've got into coaching, intrigued by you know, how the mind works and how our people learn and all those sorts of things. And there's a guy there. If you heard any of my discussions on this, I was given credit as an doorman, who's a skill acquisition expert or professor, I'm not even sure what level is that very good. And so Guillermo is actually he liked basketball. And so when I sought him out, he was thrilled. And we spoke a lot. And I got intrigued by I didn't know they existed, like these skill acquisition experts. And it makes sense, like, how do people acquire a skill? Like why haven't we gone down this path before? Like, that's what the game is about, is acquiring skill. And so, again, I could sit here, we could have a three hour discussion on this, but I guess some of the simple things is, so we're sitting there, we're talking about basketball, and we're sitting there at the end of a practice session, and he's like, watch Can someone shoot 10 shots in the corner with somebody passing it to me? Certainly. How often does that happen in the game? Like what? Like where you stand in the corner with no one guarding you? And you get 10 shots in a row? Right? Of course, never is like, so why do you practice it? I guess because we always have. It was again, it was a good question is like, why do we practice that way. And so I guess the essence of that is, as I spent more time with him, was that in order for practice to be useful, it needs to the developer skill that transfers into the game, because that's where you know, you're trying to be when you need to perform. And one of the other things always spoke to is to be skillful, you need to be truly adaptive. And you know, for me, he used to use the example of Roger Federer can win on grass, he can win on clay, he can win on hardcourt, you can win against a left hand or right hand a big server spin slicer heavy slicer. He got he can beat them all. Like he can adapt his game is a situation and so beyond most thing was all about to acquire skill, you need to practice again in situations that are relevant to the game. And so rather than practicing 10 shots in a row, on nobody, let's start to come up with some drills that are more game specific and gain like and actually now developing the skill sets you're going to need in a game in a game when you know when you got the ball like someone's running it, you got to make decisions. Am I open to somebody else open? How long do I have to shoot this? And there's a whole bunch of research that he did behind it with some of his team. And you know, he charted a bunch of shots from the Olympics, across all the teams and how many times you know how many times he had open shot, contested, shot, heavily contested shot, how many times was a player with just the shooting rhythm or he had to change his shot and shoot out a rhythm and change his fly to the ball a little bit. And the statistics remarkable, like you know, backs up everything in terms of all the shots of the Olympics, like 80% of them were contested. And it's like so why we present why aren't we practicing contested, shoot contested shots? All the shots in the Olympics, something like 70% of them showed some sort of deviation or adaptation on the shot. And it's not just standing there in rhythm. And so then why don't or how do we practice that? And why don't we practice that. And that's, I guess the essence of the basis of what I tried to do now is keep devising ways and drills to make the skill learning relevant to the game and have the transfer across into the game. And it takes some thought and one of the things so I guess one of the the examples gold mine gave me that I always remember is the Australian Olympic swimming team, there was a gold medal swimmer and for whatever reason her her dive in the water had started to tear out it wasn't where it needed to be and coaches were you know, you need to engage this culture, core and intake you engage your glutes and then push from here and and that's still nothing was happening. And eventually they got GoMo down and told them what they wanted and bit more arc and in and he's thought about it and then you got a pool noodle. And you put that out and he said, Just dive over this. And so she dove over that. And he looked across at the coaches, he said is that it? Yeah, that's pretty cool. A lot of times the athletes have the answer, right? We don't need to overcomplicate it, what we need to do is create the environment for them to get to the learning and they get that the skill that we're trying to teach. And so in basketball terms, some of the things that we'll do now like if we want to if we want to encourage more kids in transition like a practice will give a plus one every time the ball is thrown over the centerline instead of dribble over the center line but you just got in there you need to be creative and just find little ways to to encourage the learning that you want. But yeah, we don't do much on zero shooting Qualcomm it's still relevant players do it because I like it and they feel good about it and it gives them a certain I see the ball go through the net and given a certain sense of confidence, but we will do a lot more contested shooting and two on two on one on one and things that are more relevant to a game situation.
Paul Barnett 39:43
Andre you're presently the winningest Australian men's national team coach ever. Let's add the three national championships with the breakers and the conference style in Japan. guess this means you know a thing or two about winning but I wanted to Just flip that around, can focus on winning, it will be detrimental. Can it ever be too great that it dislodges the team?
Andrej Lemanis 40:12
The answer is yes. And I think I'll leave some of that experience here. Actually, in Japan, like I said, the the team, the entire team was set up for getting to be one. We all know we've got a good budget, I'm not hiding behind that we got a good budget, and we're expected to win. And that permeates throughout the organization. And I felt that last season, where we hit some adversity, and we had a time when we lost four games in a row. But I think the losing the four games in a row was a result of losing two games in a row. And the tension that that built within the group, the stress that that built within the group, because we're so focused on, we have to win the B to B to championship, we have to win a we have to win, we have to win together the one that it meant that we now played with a tension and a stress, which wasn't helpful. In fact, it was detrimental to results. And it took me a while to come to that realization myself and to try to put the fun back in to the basketball. [PB7]
And you know, as much as I sit here and talk about not being distracted by the white noise, being clear of mind and being in the moment and focusing on what you can control now, what we can control today, what do we need to get better at today, process driven like this is all very good in theory, more difficult in practice, I'm been a coach for over 20 years. And I got distracted. Like, you know, I got caught up in the whole bloody hell with lost two in a row, there's three in a row, getting a bit more anxious, I'll get more anxious at practice and feeling the stress and all those sorts of things. And it wasn't till I think I took that step back and finally caught myself and said, Hang on, hang on, you're losing who you are as a coach here and you're the you know, you need to lead us through this, the minus is to show the team that we're okay, this is fine. This is just a bump in the road. And this is, this is how we get out of it, we get back to the day to day and we'll practice like this. And we'll, we'll focus on these few things. But today, all we need to do is get better at this. And then we'll be fine. Tomorrow, we'll get better at something else. And they're alluding to the game. And it's good enough or it's not. But we need to get back to worrying about that those things that we can control. So kind of focus on winning be detrimental? Yes, it can be I think. And the other thing is, if you you know, this is where I go back to the plan in New Zealand, everybody wants to win, like why we like no one's in the competition to lose like if you if you're in the competition, like you're there to win and otherwise, while you're playing. So that's always a given, right? Nearly every team wants to win ever. We all want to win the championship, but how do you do it? Like what's important to your team like, and if you don't know, the road to get there, or what you believe the road is to get there, then even if you stumble on success, you don't know how to keep it like, and if things are going wrong, you don't know what to fix. Like it's it's sort of just if you don't know where you're going, any road will get you there. So it's, I think it's very it's a don't, it can be a dangerous thing is if all you focus on is winning, and you don't put in the building blocks underneath. And the map that you believe you need to follow to get to the winning.
Paul Barnett 43:52
I'm just curious, you're in Japan, I'm not sure what the level of English is like. So imagine you're having to sharpen your communication skills in this environment, because you're under pressure. And you're trying to get very nuanced communication through to the team, how has how have you adapted to that challenge? Boom. Football, it's
Andrej Lemanis 44:15
been a learning experience. And one of the reasons I came here is I want to try something new and something different and a different challenge. And as I say, you know, I found this, I guess this journey that I've been on with India engagement and building trust that way, and it's turned out to be relatively, I guess, successful and impactful and has brought a lot of reward for me as well because I get my joy out of seeing the players improve and grow and find that they can achieve some of the things that they're looking to achieve. But I think I've grown a little style in the NBL in Australia and it's like you know, I've been in there a long time and this An opportunity came in Japan as like, this is very different. We'll go, we're gonna have a life experience, but test test my coaching, I guess sort of my coaching style and see if that can be impactful or effective in a country that my English is not the first language. And it's been difficult, like, it really has to, you know, so much of, as you say this, so much of language is nuanced than the word you choose to say, and the tone that you say it in, and the expression that's on your face, as you say, I guess the add to all of that is not only the language barrier, but Japan, with the COVID stayed with the face mask for a very, very long time, actually, all our season like is when I was coaching, the coach in face masks, and so that takes some of the facial expression away from it as well, of course. And it's taking, it has taken a lot longer and a lot more time to build those relationships with the players. And during that the cultural difference, as well as you know, trying to understand who they are as a culture, what, what values they hold, and how do you within that value system, find a way to connect with them, you know, I can't, I can't force them to connect with me in a manner which I'm used to in Australia, I need to, you know, to their country, it's their, it's their way of life, and I need to find a way to fit into this, this style. So I can have some influence and you know, without speak without speaking the language, that's, that's very, very difficult. And so again, it's consistency of messaging of trust. The players who've been with me for a few years now to to go into my third season, you can see them now more and more, trust me and come up and ask some questions and have influence and, you know, I know like, particularly with, again, the culture here in the in the basketball environment is very much coaches King coach tells us what to do we listen. And I've come in with a much different approach in terms of I want to go with a whole group and engage, you know, engage you all and have you part of the process. And again, at the start that that didn't bite at all, there was no traction on that, and they look confused. And but now you know how, you know, maybe the back end of my first year where one of the senior players came up and said, Coach, you know, I think on the defense, we should maybe do it like this. And I was like, Thank you. Yes, here we go. Now we're getting somewhere, we're having a discussion, and you'll feel you feel comfortable enough to come up and talk to me about this. And you know, because you're playing, you need to execute this, and you have an opinion. So thank you for sharing it. And if you are going down this sort of path, it's very important that when the player, you know, when you first get this sort of the player willing to open up, open up and make himself vulnerable, that you even if you don't agree with him, make him feel 100% thrilled that he came up to you with the question and one of the discussion. You know, it's that's a real key moment. And I thought that was a key moment. And we've sort of built since then. And I'm just so fortunate, again, that I spoke before so much of this is like you know, is I have an assistant coach here, I didn't appoint him. He's a Japanese assistant. He's a Japanese coach who speaks English. And so he can communicate in both languages. And he's just been phenomenal. And obviously, as we've grown, his ability to understand sort of the way that I'm going and I guess, fortunately, we we have a similar belief system in how to coach a team. And so he's been phenomenal in that, in helping me sort of grow this environment here. And, of course, we have three Americans or three imports here, all ours happens to be American. They don't speak Japanese. And so the whole mix of how the Japanese players interact with the English speaking, buyers. That's that's been. It's been good. It's been fun, fun to learn from. And I think it's really continued my growth and education as a coach. And that's what it's about. I think that's what, that's what it is you got to stay on the journey. You got to keep growing and on different ways to get better yourself.
Paul Barnett 49:21
Well, one last question then, if I can, Andre and you're on the journey, using your words, New Zealand, Australia and Japan. And I guess what I wanted to ask you just in conclusion was in the distant future, when you do hang up the whistle, put away the clipboard, if you still use clipboards these days, what's the legacy that you hope you've left behind as a coach?
Andrej Lemanis 49:49
Just hope that the players and people in programs that I've been with say that I made a positive difference. I helped them in some way, it's, for me, there's nothing more rewarding than that. And I've had, I've been fortunate to have a few nice moments of that already in my career, you know, with a couple of different players who have said that, you know, when they made the NBA without your help, I, I am my experience with a national team, when you're, the fact that you took me on that journey is one of the things that I'll always remember for the rest of my life. So those sorts of that sort of feedback for me is absolutely gold. And I hope that as I grow older, and those plays come through, and people, members of staff that have worked I've worked with along the way when they reflect so he made a difference in you made a good in the environment, and I learned, I learned something from him that made my life a little bit more positive.[PB8]
Paul Barnett 51:07
It's a pretty, pretty good way to finish. So I'm going to thank you for your time. Andre, I know it's hot where you are today. Maybe you can go and have a nice cold, if that's allowed, and forward to sharing this interview with the rest of the world and following on as you chase down that title this year.