gunn edit
Sun, Sep 17, 2023 6:12PM • 1:07:45
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, coach, environment, work, players, line, pushing, coaching, pressure valve, moment, jeremy, day, team, change, demanding, recruit, idea, sir alex ferguson, incredible, drive
SPEAKERS
Paul Barnett, Jeremy Gunn
Paul Barnett 00:00
Jeremy Gunn Hello, and welcome to the Great coach's podcast.
Jeremy Gunn 00:05
Thank you for having me on the show really appreciate it.
Paul Barnett 00:07
I'm excited to talk a little bit of soccer, as we call it in this part of the world and yours today as we head into the World Cup, but something simple to get his going, Jeremy, where are you in the world? And what have you been up to so far today?
Jeremy Gunn 00:20
I live in well, just outside of Palo Alto, California. And we're in the middle of our summer here. And so living in Palo Alto, California, at Stanford University as we speak. Today, we've been running around getting ready for some identification camps that start next week, to a big part. And then during that time, we'll be welcoming all of our squad back to be doing work with us. And then within a month's time, we'll be getting ready to start a new season and kick off on our campaign
Paul Barnett 00:55
ends, like we picked just a moment to grab a little bit of your time before you get busy again. Yeah. Could I start, Jeremy by just talking about some of the great coaches that I could see by researching that you've worked with there, Simon time, and Andy McDermott and of course, you were with David Shaw, the football coach at Stanford as well, who was the football coach, I should say, but I'm sure you've met other good ones on your journey, and perhaps some that aren't so good. But what do you think the great coaches do differently? That sets them apart?
Jeremy Gunn 01:27
I think drive is the big thing. Because I think it's pretty easy to be average at anything. And to be okay at something without putting yourself out there. And so I think the generally the people who achieve things that they've got an incredible drive. And what's funny, in today's society, we always talk about making sure we have a balanced lifestyle. And I just really disagree with that. Because I look at the big buildings that are named after people on campus, I look at the great achievements that anybody in history has had. And I'm quite positive that people who are really great at what they do, they're quite laser focused in what they really want to do. And then the rest of life will come around them in either bigger or smaller roles. But I just think drives that big one. [PB1]
And so the people that really affected my life and my career, Simon Tobin, who recruited me, from England, to California, and you know, the biggest thing from him was just that absolute determination to transform a program that was really, really struggling, and to have the vision and the drive to make it something really special and eventually a national champion, you know. And then as I moved on, as a head coach, I had an incredible stroke of luck that I came across a gentleman who's now passed, and he McDermott who was a youth coach at Arsenal, and he was just a coaching genius, compared to where I was in the world of coaching. And from him, you know, he was just such an amazing performer. He, every session, he'd he'd kind of go through his ideas and, and it was, it was like watching an incredible actor, because he'd get on the stage and, and he would just, he would just draw all of the players in. And so I learned so much from the true coaching art from him in a really special way. Somebody who didn't mention not a coach, Dr. Dan free gang, who is a sports psychologist, I chased after him way before people were really identifying sport psychology as a major component, and are smart enough to be really inquisitive about things from him. And I managed to have a great working relationship with him for a long, long time. And, you know, that was really learning about the people. Because when I started coaching, it was it was very much about me and my record now. We'll get to that but and so for him, it was really learning a bit, a bit more holistically and really getting to understand people much more. And you see people like Coach shore on campus here, David Shaw, you know, he's somebody that if anybody knows college American football is a brutal sport. Very, very competitive combat sport, but also in the college game it's It's ridiculous how competitive it is the best word but I could use much worse words. There's a lot of things go on around the sport and and he was somebody that in a world of all sorts of craziness going on just operated completely beyond reproach and had the most level headed, sensible way of navigating? Just an amazingly high paced, demanding environment really.
Paul Barnett 05:14
You also spent time with Sir Alex Ferguson, perhaps one of the greatest coaches ever. Yes about that experience.
Jeremy Gunn 05:22
I'm a Leeds fan. So my brothers and have to turn off when I hear this but yeah, I really think Sir Alex Ferguson's the greatest of all time I do that. I wear red shirts at Stanford. Now, I never wear a red shirt in my lifetime. I was 40 years old. And I took the job here that so growing up I wasn't really allowed to admit to liking things from anything in Manchester. But yeah, we we had the incredible opportunity to see people working with their teams here. And so I've had the most amazing of Education's of the truly great coaches, had Jurgen Klinsmann here before a World Cup with the national team and he afforded unbelievable access, just an amazing man, really cool person. And definitely just a true visionary. You know, some people in the game would wonder about his tactical ideas. And you know, everybody criticizes that on coaches. But, you know, he transformed a lot of German football and went back to Germany because he was almost a mad scientist, he was really capable of thinking outside the box, it spent time in the US and seen other sports. We had Jurgen Klopp here, with his first preseason for Liverpool. Amazing watching him and you talk about the intensity of their environment was just amazing. Antonio Conte with an incredible event aside, the awesome thing about him being here was that he was desperate to be learning English because he had eyes on the Premiership. And so he was quite happy to talk soccer as much as I wanted to. So that was really, really cool. So to get tactical discussions from people like that, pretty amazing. But then we had Luke, Vanguard hit with Manchester United. He didn't give me the time of day, but there you go. Maybe had other things on his mind, you know, we think oh, my goodness, how rude. But he was probably worried about one of the players leaving one of the players coming who knows. But anyway, in the stands was Sir Alex Ferguson, he was over as an ambassador for Manchester United. And so I'm watching the training session, but I'm really kind of looking at him as kind of like, you know, the when you're in middle school, and you're at the dance, and you're too nervous to go and ask the person for a dance. And, um, there should or shouldn't should ask, sorry, I'm going over anyway, went over and introduced myself told him what I did here and just offered, if you have an interest, I'd love to, you know, we give like kind of golf cart tours of the campus, I can steal a golf cart and take you around a bit show you around. That'd be great. And so Bryan Robson, you know, when his ex, ex mercaptans, captain of England was sitting next to him. So I basically got to chauffeur the two of them are around campus for two hours. And just just really, really cool experience with them, you know. And when you talk about these, these great people, what's really interesting, the truly great people seem to also be really inquisitive. And they're just always interested, they kind of they just have a thirst for knowledge. I think people who think they're great think they know all the answers. And then I think there's a level above those people who do have a lot of answers. It's the people who they have that growth mindset. And they're always looking and interested. And so there's me trying to ask tons and tons of questions to person who I think, you know, the most successful coach, certainly that I've ever been aware of. And he's asking all questions about the cottages. So how does this work then? So they, they do studies and they play? I mean, what do you think, does that work? And you know, and so I got to talk to him about, you know, the successes of how this system works, and all of these different things. And he, he was just fascinated with it, but you know, to be able to talk to somebody like him that I really identify with him because if you read about Thoreau, actually, I came from a working class background and I just identify with some of the values and the ethos and and for a person to have driven such a huge monster. So successfully, is it amazing?
I really think you know, and I just, it kind of saddens me a bit that I think the role of the coach slash manager seems to be getting more and more marginalized. I think the big business world is thinking we shouldn't put all our eggs in one basket of a coach, which positives and negatives with that. But I think the big negative is that you kind of lose some of the personalities that really created identities of clubs and different things. So knights, it's, it's an amazing thing when I came here, one of the laws to here was that I'd be able to surround myself with amazing people. But if when I arrived here, in 2012, somebody was going to list all of the people that I got to sit and learn things from, I would have told them, they're crazy, you know, if you ask them what I'm doing today, it's even this morning, I bumped into Andrew Luck, who American football fans will know is one of the great quarterbacks and he was in college when I first got here. And you just have access to so many great people. And I just do I talk too much. And so I do my best to know that they don't want to hear what I'm talking about. I want to hear what they're talking about. And so you get to hit them up. And it's just an amazing opportunity to be around such great people. And not you know, I know everybody likes some of the stardom things and it's cool to name drop, when you say you watching PLO stroke balls to all of these people, that's really cool. Or Wayne Rooney working on his finishing or something like that. And but um, so those things are kind of cool as a fan. But as a coach and somebody who's just desperate to always get better desperate to learn. It's pretty neat when you get to have access to these people.
Paul Barnett 11:47
So Jeremy, when you were at Cal State as the assistant to Simon Tobin, yeah, that program started off at one and 59 I think
Jeremy Gunn 11:54
it was 189. Yeah, but you turned it
Paul Barnett 11:59
around, and you became the division two championship champions. And I'm wondering, what did you learn through watching that turnaround?
Jeremy Gunn 12:06
Well, he took over the program, and he got Coach of the Year in his first year ago in zero and 10, in conference losing every game, but he got coach of the year because the score lines went from seven nil to to one and things like that. So very humble beginnings. And, you know, he, he just had a vision and a drive that really had no business of being placed in that situation. And so he did everything, you know, put an extra water on the field, make it better, you name it, digital. And so the biggest original thing was just just getting to see that passion and drive. And that if you really put your mind to something, you know, I can say anything's possible, but at least it is way more possible. And way more probable that if you don't do it, but there's one humbling thing that happens as a player going through part of the growth process, we, we kind of took over the first few hurdles when I was a player, but we, we got much better when I stopped playing and became an assistant, we had better players and replacing me included. But, you know, as a player, I was quite critical. And I'd complain about certain things like our scholarships would never get paid on time. And so you know, we would get dropped from classes. And so I got to learn that every quarter, I'd have to schmooze the professor and say, hey, look, I have to be in this class. But my name is not going to show up on the roster for a couple of weeks, because it always gets paid late, etc, etc. And so when I, when I became Simon's assistant, I had an idea that I was going to be able to fix a ton of working things that really should be better, etc, etc, on my, on my high horse, you know. And then when I, when I became part of it, I realized that if Simon had gone by what should have happened, nothing would ever have got done. Because the money just wasn't there to be successful. It wasn't there to support the scholarships. And he was constantly stealing from Peter to pay Paul sort of thing. And so every year, he would go in massively over budget, just to be able to pay scholarships for the players like what I've gone through, and then tirelessly, tirelessly working all summer long, with summer camps and leagues and clinics and different things to pay off the debt. And so it was kind of a bit of a humbling experience for me, it's like, Don't ever make assumptions about things until you actually know the whole story. And, and then also, just that type of drive thing that it's like don't accept no for an answer. cuz that simple answer is where you can't afford to run a program that's going to be successful. That was the easy answer. The hard answer was okay, what do we need? What can I try and do? And then I'm going to lose every night's sleep trying to figure out how to back it up when that comes along. So just unbelievable experience, and certainly what a cool journey that he had. And I was fortunate enough to be a part of it and got to learn so much along the way with him before then eventually moving on, you know,
Paul Barnett 15:33
let's talk about moving on. Because you have a bachelor's and you have a master's degree, I can see it, I understand it was a professor of organizational behavior, who actually helped you develop this appreciation for people being a product of their environment. And I know this is very much a central part of your coaching philosophy. Can you tell us why this idea resonated with you so much.
Jeremy Gunn 15:56
Actually, even studied biology when I was in high school, and so I was really fascinated and evolution and fascinating nature and nurture. And so always had an interest in environmental factors. And, and, you know, we, we grew up in an area where people would talk about God given talent and things like that. And so, you know, this many, many years later, it's become a disciple of Dr. Carol Dweck, with the book mindset, and then actually understanding a lot more of the academic thoughts about these areas.
But at that time, it was very much, you know, if you're going to be a coach, if you just think people are good or not, then what's the point in really coaching and educating, you might as well to spend all of your time recruiting trying to get the best horses possible. And so your job, really, as a coach is just a recruiter?
Or you really can think, How can I shape something and help improve people help improve an environment. And so I look at it for me, in essence, for me is if you want a really competitive, hard working, really tough, driven environment, then how are you going to shape people to be that way. And so if you want certain actions, create your environment to be there. And I really think that applies to just about anything. So to me, as a coach, figure out what product you want, what outcome you want, and then create an environment that's going to shape people towards that. [PB2] [PB3]
And so, you know, I even kind of had a, I then look back, and I even think I had a pretty good case study from just my high school experience, you know, the biology teacher had was, everybody was frightened to death of it. You know, intimidated, et cetera, et cetera. So if you're, if you forgot your homework, you ran home and picked it up and ran back and got it on time. If you're tired the night before turning in the homework, you stayed up and you did it, it was that simple. As a result, the results from his classes were incredible. Then I had a math teacher, who was the nicest person in the world, if you forgot something, then you didn't bother turn it in an excuse was easily done, you know, you're tired, you didn't bother doing it. And so, to me, it was just there for and again, not everybody works this way.
But for me, it was simple. If you have a strong discipline environment, it's going to create discipline, strong results. If you have a laissez faire environment, then maybe you know, might allow for more creativity and things like that. But you also have a lot of lack of accountability. And a lot of people not reaching that mark. And I kind of look at when I deal with the great people that I work with, they don't ask permission to set a high standard, they just go ahead and do it, you know, they, they have high standards. But a lot of people often settle for low standards. And so to me, I try and create an environment that's, that's really going to push those high standards. So I see those things and I just think, you know, how you do something is how you do everything. And then I, I look at what we want with our environment. And it's it's an environment of growth. And so every person is constantly trying to pursue maximum growth in a real targeted way. And, you know, we look at those values of having a compete level, being hard working, being relentless, being disciplined, having humility and a real accountability within that environment. And so, we you know, I've kind of gone by the fact that if I can create this type of environment I'm gonna get these types of results. [PB4]
And so I don't think things happen by accident. You know, when I, when I went to Liverpool train under Klopp, everything about it was electrifying. How do they play? Electrifying, same with under Content, everything about it was, it was sharp, it was intense, just, you know, you don't spend half an hour gonna get a drink of water, you're jogging, you jog out everything about it, add an intensity to it, which then form people with intensity. I think the big questions are really though, when you think of nature and nurture, though, and this is where I'd pay people anything is to figure out the million dollar questions of what is hardwired in people? And what is malleable? And what can you change and alter? I don't think there's a right answer for everybody. I think certain things are more hardwired in some people. And the same character traits are less hardwired and other people, I do know that, you know, we pick up people at the age of 18, there's been 18 years of an environmental factor on them as in the parenting they've had and the environment they've been in. And so when we look at our recruitment process, we're desperately looking for the people, they're going to fit our identity already. Because it's going to mean that we have to do less shaping, and they can help shape our environment, rather than hold it back. And then also, one thing that's really important for, I think, our college system, we do spend big periods of time just training and not competing. And so if we need to create a really, really competitive team, then we're going to have to create a really, really competitive training environment. Because we can't just try and apply performance on game days, when we play many, many less games and typical professional in the rest of the world would play. And so our college training environment is imperative. Now when we're coaching people, the ages of 18, to 22. So it's a massive growth stage. Still, we're not coaching 30 year olds, where we're just managing them. And we're not coaching seasoned pros that are really, really hard wired in many ways. We've got fertile young people who can really grow really change. And so our environment is going to really dictate hopefully, how far we can stretch their parameters.
Paul Barnett 22:39
Jeremy, I think a lot of what you've talked about their discipline, the hard work, accountability comes to bear and This next quote that I have from one of your ex players, it was Brandon Vincent, who course went on to represent Team USA. And he said, he Jeremy wanted to make sure everyone that was there wanted to be there and wanted to really push. And so he tested us, a lot of guys lift up to the test, and we're fine. And some guys couldn't handle it. And they ended up quitting. I want to pick up on this theme of pushing, you know, challenging people and make creating a competitive environment to make sure that they do thrive and become the best they can be. Because there's a line as a leader, which is the right place where you challenge the individual. And it's really hard sometimes to find that line. But when people ask you for advice, would you tell them around this line, this line that demarcates pushing just the right amount, but not too far.
Jeremy Gunn 23:44
There's a ton in this, and this is this is such an exciting topic, but also a topic of my biggest struggles. First of all brands are stuck. By the way, what a cool guy and he went on to represent the US he was he was crushing it in Major League Soccer and he he walked away far younger than I would have wanted him to as his soccer coach. But he went into the financial sector crushed it in that and he's currently an MBA student here on campus. And so I get to see him a ton and just became a dad the other day as well. So I mean, it's so cool, dude. I could talk about him for hours.
But but, you know, as far as the pushing on that line, I think that there's no correct answer to this, because we all have different feelings of where line should be and they're very, very subjective. And so, where you think a line is is very different than where I do where the next person is. So that the current via a proper answer to where line should be so subject to with and then it So we've got ever changing norms, we've got ever changing expectations in society. And so the lines are changing even more. I do really think though, when you're a coach, or you're a leader, the big thing is to create agreed upon lines within the group you have, and then maintain standard to those lines. And so your opinion now doesn't matter. My opinion now doesn't matter, we as a team have decided that this is the line. So that's the standard we're going to go by. And until we agree that that, that standard needs to change. [PB5] [PB6]
But again, now, you know, then when we talk about pushing people, now we're talking about kind of different lines, aren't we, you know, it's not just standard, really. So Brandon was was part of our first recruiting class here. And so he was part of that wonderful journey of going with a team that kind of went from 100 to number one. And so when you're, when you're part of that journey, that there is a beginning point that that is different. So he's talking about at the beginning, when I inherited program, I'm a new coach. And so it's different. I think it's really natural for a beginning to be tough, I think it's really natural for a beginning to be extra demanding. And so when we, when we started off, the needs to be changed, you know, typically, when you're moving into an environment, most likely, it's because the environment didn't work out for a short period of time, whatever. But so, you know, you think that the group needs to change. The people in the group weren't recruited by you. And they didn't recruit you as a coach. So their ideologies, their lines, they're different than what yours are anyway. And so you're already not necessarily a match. And then speaking, like with my good friend and other college coach, Kevin Lang, and you know, he always talks about creating a high demand high support environment, which I think is really vital, you can really expect high demands, and be really supportive. But to be honest, at the beginning, I'm in favor of the high demand environment and little support. Because that way, I could really judge if people want it to be in our new world. And so when you're inheriting people, make it really tough, make it really demanding force upon change upon people, and then see who wants to be on the bus? And then when you do that, the people who are on the bus now, you know, they're with you, because they hadn't chosen you. They were given you against her? Well, maybe, you know, maybe some of them are still pining for the last coach, you know, the person who believed in them and recruited them. So initial time, absolutely make it really, really tough. And I'm okay with that. And I know that means that some people drop out. I make no apologies for that. [PB7]
It's tough. It's it's part of any environment, I think if if you have any athletic environment where everybody's content with a roll, I don't think you're pushing hard enough. And so you've got to push and stretch people make people grow, make people change. And then if people don't want to go in that direction, that's okay. They don't want to sign up for a new version. That's, that's fine by me. And so as you push those lines, I think, I'd like to think a lot of my ex players would make a compliment of our environments that it is really environment really demanding. And that they're actually really proud that they were part of such a demanding environment. And they were proud that this was an environment that wasn't for everybody, you know, and so I'm okay with the fact that it's tough. And those lines are pushed now. That's one part next. Now I get really philosophical.
And this is where it becomes a struggle. And it becomes confusing for people and coaches, educators today, I think, have a ton of thoughts with this. And some of it's kind of a slippery slope in some ways, but I look at it just from my experience in my lifetime, I think we've gone through three distinct periods of line setting and expectations and accountability with those things. I think, you know, when I started off in sports and different things, were a bit of a darker period where I think it was absolutely Darwinism survival of the fittest. If, if you didn't crush everybody, then they were tougher, right? And people survived through basic training of the forces. They survived through preseason. They survived through the norm setting, goal setting, in phases. And I think join my career in my lifetime. I really think we as a society, really improved and got better where we were still pushing for high expectations and high performance. But we had a much better understanding that there were there were topics of mental well being there were topics that certain lines that shouldn't be crossed by coaches, because that's, that's not cool. That's not right. That's unethical, etc, etc. But now's a really slippery part. Now we get into the era we're in. This is where I saw, I felt that in my career, we've made great progress.
Now, as much as certain things are still progressing, I really think that we're almost at the stage now where we are so worried about lines being crossed, that it's hampering performance. And I think it's holding a lot of good people back in what they want to do. I truly believe that and again, that my disclaimer to this whole part now is not that I don't recognize mental illnesses and mental issues, trust me, I am acutely aware, and my mother suffered terribly from certain things. Now, I've been around people with with serious, serious issues. But I don't think having a really demanding line pushing environment creates mental illness. Typically, I think, though, there are some biological things there. Now, me creating a line that you don't like, can make you upset, can make you angry, can make you not happy, etc, etc. But I would have come from the place that I think, ethically, I'm pushing the line on you for a great cause. I want you to be upset, I want you to struggle, I want you to have hardship. And if we keep at it together, you're going to be able to push further. And then you'll come back to me in 10 years time and go, Hey, thanks for kicking my ass sort of thing, you know. But at the time, you wouldn't feel that way. But the thing I see now, though, like some of those people that might have dropped out of a program I was in when I was now pushing things originally. I think some some people in those situations that now have a really strong voice. And it makes life really difficult. Because everybody's idea of a subjective line is so different. And so I am, I really struggle with this, because I think my job is to help you as a player grow, for us as a team to grow. And I think the way of growing is by really making it demanding, and then obviously as we go through the journey really supporting as well. And so, you know, I struggle every single day now with looking at where those lines should be drawn, and where other people think they could be drawn. [PB8]
Fun Ricky Gervais quote, and my goodness, I shouldn't start quoting that on a coaching podcast. Right. But, you know, he gets a, you know, he gets buried for offending people. And his answer to that is, just because you're offended is it's not my fault. That's your problem. And, you know, I cannot guarantee that I know exactly where you think your subjective lines are, and whether you're right or wrong. And so, I'm wired to pushing people I'm wired to put in the herd on people. And it comes from a place of love and desire and drive. And so the the people who are on board with us as upset that they might be today, they're okay with it in the long run. And then when we get together for a beer or a coffee in 10 years time, we talk about it. And the conversations with past players are always about those moments, that if we were talking about line crossing, they'd be brought up you know,
Paul Barnett 34:51
it sounds like yeah, you've reflected on it deeply. It sounds like it's, it sounds like it's taking a lot of your headspace and I'm, what if we flipped it around and what if we said Do you ever, you know, step forward in engage in apologize in the moment? Or is it? Or is that just even more confusing for you and and the athlete?
Jeremy Gunn 35:13
No, I think if you think you're in the wrong way stuff, I think you absolutely should apologize again, we go through this, we we make lots of mistakes on them. That's okay.
I think I'm very reflective on this, because I've always pushed people that I've prided myself on being capable of pushing people. I prided myself on the fact that when guys come back to our program, and talk and they pass on knowledge to our players, they, they say, hey, the standards we had here, were fantastic. That people I work with, they don't even know how to keep standard. And so I'm really proud of how we've pushed. But we also have a modern society that is making you absolutely fearful of pushing anybody's lines in any way, shape, or form. And I struggle with that I really do. And I think it's, you know, I have my own coach, and we talk about, okay, how can I continue to turn the screws on people, but do it in a way that can teach completely protects me from having lawsuits, or people wanting me fired, et cetera, et cetera, but also still allows people to grow and change. You know, athletes are pushing past boundaries that their brain or body tells them not to push past. And sometimes, like a halftime talk, if you're a transcriber halftime talk, it wouldn't look that pretty sometimes when it's that moment, not not always like that. But it's an all that is this is somebody that you love and care about, and you want them to do well. And I feel that I have a skill set of prodding and poking people to get a response, you know, and I'm, I'm okay with that. I feel it's completely in context, and completely for the good of the cause, in my role as head coach, but I know a lot of coaches in today's world are frightened of pushing people frightened of mentally challenging people, because they're worried about what that other person's line is. [PB9]
And, and here's the thing that I heard a great podcast recently, and I'm terrible at I forget the lady's name. But you know, we talk about mental health so much today. And she talks about, we've got to reframe it and call it mental fitness. Because when we talk about mental health, the moment you have a hardship and an issue, you think it's a it's an illness, you think it's a catastrophic problem. Whereas if we can talk about mental fitness, these are just challenges, your famous challenges and the more mentally fit you are at this present time. The more you're up to more challenges, the less mentally fit you are, the less you're up to those challenges. And so, I look at my job, pushing the envelope pushing those lines. I'm helping train you to become more mentally fit to become more able to take on any challenges and frame them as Okay, right. This sucks. This is tough, but I'm up to it because I'm strong. I've got mental Strength. Whereas we're in a bit of a society now, while having spoken so much now about mental health where we never did when I was a young player at all. Now, we talked about it all the time. But I think we're almost creating people who then want to run away from these issues, or not be exposed to these issues, rather than to be challenged head on and to be bopped on the nose and then having to deal with it. And so I look at a different coaches, you know, there's a famous swim coach purposely breaks the goggles of their swimmer, one of the lower meats so that that person can then know how to deal with it, and then they become an Olympic champion. And their goals weren't even working properly, right? I mean, today's world, I do that I've got to worry about a lawsuit now because I'm mentally abusing my athlete.
And it's like, you know, I feel that the good era was a time when we go into a relationship, we earn trust. And with that trust, if I step over a small line, and you step over a small line, it's all good, you apologize, you move on, because we all know we're in it for the same thing. Whereas coaches, and teachers of our kids, they, they struggle to push people now. And I, like I say, I'm not belittling True, true issues, I'm not belittling that at all, I have to be crystal clear with that. But I just know, every action has a consequence, every environment creates an outcome. And I just kind of go on, we holding back on people a little bit too much. And as a result, not making, not helping people become mentally fitter. You know, avoidance is making you weaker sort of thing. So that was a comment to this as well night about product and environment. What this means for me, our recruitment process is even more important, because I know what environment that we're promising. I know what people we want on board. And so if we can recruit more like minded people with the values, and the hard wiring that we do believe in, then their their subjective lines are going to be like ours. Because again, if we lined two people up, and I crack a joke, well, one person defended one person that was funny, and within reason, you know, it's not it's not egregious, the same with pushing people in boundaries with that. You know, I have great players that I would absolutely get after, you know, and some of it was just poking them, it's poking them. Other players, my goodness, they would crumble with that. And so can you know, we're all different. [PB10] [PB11]
But can we recruit really well towards the identity we want. And so now, my recruitment process here, I do everything in my power to persuade people out of coming, here I go, I'm promising hardship and promising tears, and promising failure and promising hard work. And I'm promising all of these things. And if you go through that, you're going to be so strong. But you're not going to get Pat's on the back every second, you're not gonna get super tears every second, this is what we stand for, do you want to be in or not? And so then we're agreeing upon the rules of engagement, you know, you know, within reason, then I think we've got a much better chance of success. And I think I'm a much better coach for those people that I recruit in that way. If I sell my soul flattering people, I just, that's just not me, I can't do it. And I can, actually, I can do it. But then I hate myself for it. And then I become a really bad coach for them. So it just doesn't work.[PB12]
Paul Barnett 44:20
For me, can I ask you about a little bit more about the culture you're setting up there? And I've heard you talk about the matrix that you've got on your training door that challenges you to reflect on whether you're either a culture champion, or a culture killer, can you can you tell us about that?
Jeremy Gunn 44:36
Yeah, currently where we got it from years ago, and just a four box matrix can in the bottom left hand corner was a culture killer, low performer. And then top left was a high performer but a culture killer so someone who, who can do their job but doesn't really help the team and doesn't bring the most out of people or maybe goes about things the wrong way. bottom right hand corner is someone who's a low performer, but a culture champion. So someone who's not good enough yet, but they have the right attitude, they do the right things. And so they absolutely have the propensity to move upwards. Because we believe in growth, to become that culture champion and that high performer as the coach, the executive coach I work with, because, you know, I've been questioned about usage of words, and, you know, I got into trouble for saying somebody's behaviors, cancerous and I don't think that's wrong. Culture killer, it's like, well, should you use the word killer, can't you, somebody who should improve the culture? Come on. And again, I want to use provocative words, because coming back to the lines, if I like this comes back to the teachers I had that worked with me. If I have somebody that beats around the bush, it doesn't land and I'm not listening. If I have somebody that gets right to it, they get my attention. Now I've got to think about it. And now I've got to decide if I want to change it or not. So I I prided myself on using strong, provocative words throughout my career. I thought that was really good. Now I'm confused that Am I allowed to use these words, because the word I use is too provocative. And I've crossed somebody's line.[PB13]
Sorry, I'm going back to the last question. But anyway, but with this box, I was really cool. So we were just, this is who we are, this is how we want to be. And so And remember, we're always talking about growth. So this isn't, this isn't fixed, it can be this moment, this day, hey, you're over here. Get your backside over there. Come on. That's not That's not helping you. It's not helping us. And remember, environment is everything. So if you don't work your hardest, it says a striker than our defenders not getting chiseled in the way that he needs to. And so product to the environment, if you're going at 80%, the person you're going up up against is not improving as much, and then the person they're going up against is not improving as much. And so it really comes back to massive belief, you know, we play a team sport, it's a combat sport. And I really think the Alpha dogs set the pace, you know, I like to talk about a great team being kind of like a pack of Huskies, you know, and when when you have two dogs pulling on a rope in opposite direction, it's really obvious that the forces are going against each other. And we're not going to get very far. When we talk about agreed upon identity agreed upon driven goal, then here's the direction we're going. And if you think that every time somebody just veers off slightly in that direction, we're losing some of our distance, what we can achieve. And then in that, that pack, the alpha dogs are going to set the pace. So your high performers, they better be culture champions. And I can, I can come back to discussions on that if you want. But what what we then talk about is fulfilling role always doing your best with what you've got, always. And so the dogs further back, if they're only going to 80%, they're a little bit of dead weight for the Alpha dogs. Now, everybody's got to be going all out all the time. And whenever you're not going all out, you're not only hurting your performance, but you're really affecting the team performance. And I think we could all have some fun talking about famous star soccer players that are out for dogs, and they don't set the pace maybe anymore. You know, the simple example for me would be you look at a great player who's now at the end of their career. They still do enough to get the status, they still do enough to sell the jerseys. But are they really helping the team out anymore? And those are those things that I'm always very wary of. And again, I I live and breathe, what we talk about identity hard working, doing your best. And so if you have people that they might score you a goal, but they're not working as hard as they can I I struggle with those people, because I think they're going to affect the rest of the group massively. Because the rest because remember, we were still at the formative stage. If I was coaching, 30 year old pros, 35 year old pros, maybe I wouldn't worry as much about it and still have My philosophical beliefs, but I wouldn't be as worried for performance. Young college players growing all the time, they have to be showing those hard working behaviors all the time to be able to continue to grow.
Paul Barnett 50:17
It's fascinating listening to you, Jeremy, this this, this this theme of self reflection, very heavy self reflection that comes through when you talk. In fact, it's almost like you measure yourself internally before you look outward. into that point, I've actually heard you say you shouldn't compare players from year to year because the context is very different. Have you always been this way? Or was there an event or something that challenged you to be more reflective?
Jeremy Gunn 50:49
I don't know, really, I mean, so much of my original game, it wasn't planned out or carefully mapped out, it was there's a lot of things that were just there and continued to grow. And it wasn't until 10 Actually, actually, time goes by 15 years ago that I was really starting to really dig deeper on the why and how we go about things, you know, there wasn't a lot of literature available. There wasn't a lot of impactful information available when you're first starting out coaching, you know, think life was more simple than.
But, I mean, if you're, if you're looking at kind of introspection, we talked about the mirrors and Windows, which I really like. And it's just natural that when you do well, you're looking at yourself in the mirror, and you think how wonderful I am. And when you do badly, you look out the window, and you point the finger and blame other people. And so you know, one of the parts of our code is to reverse that and say, hey, when things aren't good look in the mirror, start with yourself. And then when things are great, show a bit of humility, point out the window to your teammates and say I'm great because of them and always tried to look at it that way. [PB14] [PB15]
And I haven't always looked at it that way. My goodness, I got vanity but I certainly know to educate my players on these things. I don't know. And I think you know, there's certain parts of it SunPass I don't I've not really had a I'm trying to think of incredible lightbulb moments. But um, I mean, a great one was with Andy McDermott, when I invited him in to work with us. I, you know, I sat down. Before he was he was going to come help me in preseason. And I had it all mapped out. And I spent basically an hour explaining how everything was going to go in preseason and how he would dovetail into all of my work and all this and the other. And after I've blathered on for over an hour, he basically said, Jeremy, how about you let me take the session tomorrow? I was gobsmacked because, you know, I'm a I'm a leader from the front, you know, and I just had, I've said this before on interviews, but it's like, I'm so proud of this moment of humility that I actually, for some reason, completely against who I am, allowed an outsider to take control, you know, because that's not me. And he ran the first session, and it was just like, wow, this guy knows so much more than I do. This is amazing. And so it's like, Okay, the second session and the third session, you know, we're walking out to middle of preseason, you know, one of my players and remember, I've been the fearless leader and the boss, you know, sir, Alex Ferguson, whatever you want to say, you know, gold got to a gun, what are we going to do today? I got absolutely no idea, mate. But I turn the screws on you to improve. And you've got to have the humility to know when you can get better and take outside information as a treat. So I'm doing the same right now. You know, and honestly, it was a, it was that, for me, actually, the most humbling and frustrating time of my career. But that somewhere inside me, I had just enough humility to realize that this guy was a genius. And I was clueless, and I could absolutely learn so much from him. And so, in that, you know, in those moments, I think I'll give myself credit that I'm a pretty, pretty smart magpie. You know, some people can steal ideas from everywhere, and I do that all the time shamelessly. But for some reason that I've managed to figure out who to steal from and in which way so that It's authentic when I when I take it on plagiarize, you know, all legally, of course, right?
Paul Barnett 55:06
All legally, because there's a quote from you that really resonated with me actually, you said, as a coach, you're creating different motivation from day to day. But you're also being a pressure valve. 100% agree with the second part of that, being a pressure valve and letting off steam within the group through your own actions and focus areas. But how do you make sure that this pressure valve doesn't blow when you're the leader.
Jeremy Gunn 55:34
Um, I first you know that the motivation from day to day, I think those are skill sets that you acquire through experiences. And I think through time, you get to recognize personalities, people. And so you really have to constantly understand that you can't read the book and then apply the book on a group of people. You have to read the people and apply what answers are pertinent to those people. And then you have to apply the right answers at the right time. Because the old axiom, you know, you can't put your hand in the river, in the same place twice, it's always moving changing. The young man that comes into this program. As a first year player, his name might be the second, the same is second, third, fourth years, but he's a different human being. And his experiences have changed him, for better or for worse, and in all different ways, you know. And so, learning to work with different motivations at different times, that's a really fun, enjoyable part of the job. And, you know, I, I hate to be bogged down by a strict structure of what we're going to do I have strict ideas of principles and standards.
But for any given moment, I truly believe there's a totally different answer. And there's a very different answer and a different question for each person you work with. So the young forward that comes in, needs a ton of help with their confidence, you know, and you, you don't gain confidence by me telling them a wonderful that people think that by rubbish, they gain confidence by learning to execute a task better, and then getting really, really good at it. They gain confidence. So they go from not being a goal scorer to being a goal scorer. So they go from low confidence, needing one type of help to high confidence. Now you've got to worry about if it gets to be overconfidence and complacency. So you're, you're constantly, you're always adjusting the motivational thoughts. And you're always constantly adjusting that little pressure valve in these, all of these hundreds of little micro moments that you get every day in coaching, which is, that's really fun. And so, you know, when you go home, and you complain about the behaviors of the people you work with, it's like, my goodness, that's what makes it so special. If every if everybody was a robot, and just kind of you said one thing, and then off, they went on the tracks, it'd be pretty boring as a coach. So working with people is the most amazing thing, because there's always something new. [PB16]
So yeah, so you, you learn to recognize the different motivations. And then even in the course of a season, it's like you, you have all of these different moments to work through the first day of preseason, it's a moment. And people's energy levels are through the roof. And the moment you pick a starting lineup, it's a moment and now people's motivations change. And then you go through the fact that, you know, we'll play twice a week quite often and so the Thursday night under the lights, the the energy levels through the roof, and you're selling people down, but then Sunday lunchtime, you're playing the energy levels low and you've got to raise it up. Sometimes, you know, we we have an emphatic victory on a Thursday. I'll just be on the warpath to find something wrong on the Saturday just to piss people off and just to get them back on their toes. So we're not we're not satiated and happy going into the Sunday lunchtime game. And I I find fun in that. You know, and again, now we come back to those lines and stuff. It's like okay, you got to be careful, but hopefully you get the point. But so, you know, just even talking to the players in different moments, you know, to me, you can you're not a hypocrite, when you can be talking to one person who's got lower arousal that This is like life and death, you've got to fight like a warrior, you know. And then in the same game in the same moment, you're talking to another player, hey, this is only a game, just chill out. It's okay. You know, we love you, no matter what you know. And so those are the things with being a coach, I think it's really fun being that pressure valve where you increase excitement, energy, decrease it. How do you inspire, I guess, I look at the great art of coaching would be by being that moderator. And, you know, I love that poem by Rudyard Kipling. If, by the way, I think, you know, we keep buying all of these incredible books written by amazing people, go back to the late 1800s, read that poem. And I think he may, just about everything that I care about. And so, if you, you show me a great book that's on the shelf today that I would love to read and learn so much from, you can almost take every chapter from that book and go to that poem, and go, Yep, he nailed it in two lines, he nailed that chapter in two lines. And he's amazing, you know, and so you know, never get too excited, know, it do down all of the different things, you could go on and on and unpack that whole thing around. And so I really love being that person that's constantly trying to do that. And I think that's a skill that you you definitely learn. So sometimes your job, to course, correct is a little nudge. And sometimes it's fundable. And I think that's good. Now, how do you stop the vowel from blowing? I actually have, I've got a sharp temperament. But sometimes, as a coach, I am trying to be the great actor. And so I can stand outside of the locker room before halftime, and we're talking as coaches, it's like, they need the rocket. Yeah. Okay. And then I go, and I go crazy for seven minutes or whatever. And, and my head hurts because Sam shouting so hard. And then I come back out the room. That was pretty good, wasn't it? We're ready to go again. And so some of that just being on the stage. I don't really lose. You know, the pressure valve doesn't really blow with me much at all. Although the players absolutely think it has done. And this is what's fun, coming back to walking that tightrope of lions now, for me to land the impact that I want it to land, they have to feel like it has blown in that mountain, I remember that not every game. There's the moments where people are tired, and they're hurting, and they're feeling sorry for themselves, give them something else to worry about. And then the the easiest thing in the world is for him to sprint around on a soccer field. That's not for every moment and everything and everybody, but the there are those moments where I think they're still awesome. And I think that should still be part of coaching, you know, not screaming every day. But certainly, again, getting people to the right arousal levels of a really competitive sport. You know,
Paul Barnett 1:03:35
Jeremy, perhaps just one final question, if I could. I know, we've talked a lot today about meeting some of those alumni coming back and talking about those hard moments that you've had. But in the distant future, when you do hang up the whistle. What is it you hope is the legacy you've left with the people that have been in your program?
Jeremy Gunn 1:04:01
I looked at Sir Alex Ferguson a lot through my career. And I loved when I was reading from him that the next day after a championship you're getting after it going through and honestly, I can honestly say, I've always led my career that way where I really wasn't ever thinking about the word legacy at all. And I am not a country and western fan. But Kenny Rogers, the gambler. There'll be plenty of time for counting your chips when the game's done. I'm okay with that. So when I retire, then maybe there'll be a lot more fun reflection and worrying about that.
For the most part of my career, it was a competitor. My job is to help this team win. And I want to do it in a way that I think is good. Simple as that, you know, and for me good. We're all though As values and and having the togetherness of a team that's a really cool existence to be part of that pack. And so, could we win? Can we enjoy the journey? Could we love the failures and successes and and really enjoy that. And so that was really my understanding of my job for a very long time. And then it wasn't until you start listening to all different things and reading different things that, you know, you start questioning, what's your higher purpose? And what are the real expectations? And then, as much as I always felt I was providing a holistic environment? I think now I'm thinking more deliberately about that holistic environment, if that makes sense. I guess short answer, Legacy wise, I hope you make an impact. So that you're not forgettable. And that when people mentioned your name, your hope that people laugh and smile. And if there's a few people that frown and scowl, and I'm okay with that thing. I think that's okay. I'd much rather have provoked feelings and not, you know, so, um, no, I think you know, the big hope, though, is that you can have really enjoyed being around people. And I do and I want to continue doing that. And I, I guess, I get asked about my players a lot. And to me, I even say to the guy that say, look, simple test for me with you when someone mentions your name in 10 years time. Do I smile? And then with a lot of you do, I laugh and immediately, I'm thinking of the great moments and great memories. And if, if, if I smile and laugh and to me that means you've been incredibly successful with where my where my barometer is, that makes sense.
Paul Barnett 1:06:59
Sounds like a pretty good place for us to finish. Jerry, thanks so much for your time today. It's been a really deep conversation. I've enjoyed it immensely. It's given me a lot of things to reflect on. And I wish you all the best for the coming preseason.
Jeremy Gunn 1:07:15
Well, thank you so much for having me. And it wouldn't be right with an Englishman talking to an Ozzy if there couldn't be a little bit of sledging to finish. So, hopefully by the time this goes out, maybe the commies have got another test back and they can be looking at the decider. Yeah,
Paul Barnett 1:07:35
maybe I won't release it if that's the case.
Jeremy Gunn 1:07:39
Thanks, Jeremy. Really appreciate it.
Paul Barnett 1:07:42
Thank you, Jeremy.