leadership identity edit
Mon, Jul 08, 2024 6:33AM • 26:50
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
leader, alistair, identity, great, coach, lead, leadership, paul, superpowers, years, people, brentford, respected, working, talk, support, consistency, question, beliefs, high expectations
SPEAKERS
Gail Goestenkors, Allistair McCaw, Paul Barnett
Paul Barnett 00:00
Alistair McCourt, good morning and welcome back again to the great coaches podcast.
Allistair McCaw 00:05
Thank you, Paul, good to see you again.
Paul Barnett 00:07
Alistair, could I start with something a little different? What did you watch on the TV yesterday? Were you happy with the results?
Allistair McCaw 00:16
Well, my team's Liverpool, so I don't really watch any other teams, but I saw the scores. But what was I watching on TV? I was watching reruns, which I do almost every night, of old Formula One races like from 1980 and 1990 so I'm a f1 fanatic since I was a little boy,
Paul Barnett 00:39
just something different to get us going. But alasta, look, we're here today to talk about leadership identity, and I know it's a theme that runs through your writing and your books. You talked about it in lead with purpose make an impact, and also in your latest book, mindset is your superpower. In fact, it was in that latest book where where I came across it for the first time, and you explain leadership identity as the way you see yourself as well as the way you would like others to perceive you. Can we just start right there?
Allistair McCaw 01:12
Yeah, I think it's very important to start with with understanding that growing as a leader starts by first knowing yourself and defining how you lead? And when I posed this question to leaders, coaches, managers, teachers, and I asked that question of, you know, how do you how do you coach? How do you lead? How do you teach? You can fill in whatever occupation you're in, and they struggle to to answer that question. You know, they've never really paused and thought about their identity, even even the identity as a parent. You know, we can all have, you know, an identity and whatever role we play in life. But it's a question that actually challenges a lot of leaders, a lot of managers, coaches, etc, is, you know, how you know they can talk about culture that can explain their standards, they can explain all these other things, but when it comes to the question being posed to them, how do you lead, they struggle with that one. [PB1] And I think a great example of someone who understood, and I say understood in past because Pete Carroll, the former Seahawks coach, who stepped down after 14 years with a franchise in January this year, in his in his going away speech. So when he announced that he was retiring, which was like I said, early, early January, he had this to say, having been in this very unique
02:40
position for the last 14 years, what would be your advice for anybody who comes in and sits in the
02:45
same the only time next day I've went, Yeah, well, it wouldn't matter whether it's football or whatever, to me, the essence of being as good as you can be is you have to figure out who you are. And you got to figure out that in a relentless effort to try and get clear about what what's important to you, what uncompromi uncompromising principles Do you stand by, what makes you who you are, so that if you don't go through that process, you don't do the self discovery, and you don't have an opportunity to be your best, because you don't know who you are yet. And so it's really hard for our young guys, because they're just figuring out and but as they come through our time, through the time they get 25.6 we see the development. But for anybody, you understand what kind of player you are, you understand what kind of coach you are, you understand what kind of person you're kind of dead you are, and all the way down the line to maximize your authenticity and be connected to that true essence of who you are. That's, that's what's crucial. Without that, you're gonna be sometimes, and you don't be sometimes. That's why, you know, people don't, it's hard to be consistently successful, because people don't even know how they got there. A lot of times it just happens kind of along the way, the circumstances come together. No, you know. So that's that, that's the, to me, the essence
Allistair McCaw 03:58
of it. And those are just, when I heard that, I was just that's, that's leadership identity, right there. You know, he emphasizes the importance of understanding oneself, a sentiment that's often overlooked in the fast paced, results driven world of sports business and beyond. And again, getting back to what I mentioned in the beginning, is that when you pose this question to somebody, they struggle to answer that straight away, because they're so caught up in the actual the actual role that they're in and the tasks that it involves, that they actually don't pause to think about that. So you know, Pete Carroll, one of the most successful NFL coaches of all time, I think he got to two Super Bowl finals, reached 10. Playoffs, won the Super Bowl as well. I can't remember which year that was, but, you know, he just explains it right? There is that you've got to know yourself to become better at what you do. So knowing yourself as a parent, knowing yourself as a teacher, as a coach, as a leader, whatever you may be.
Paul Barnett 05:00
Pete Carroll talk a lot about that in on his podcast. He has one with Steve Kerr. And actually, Steve Kerr said that it was before he started with Golden State. He went along and spent time with Pete Carroll, and from that, came away and started working on his own leadership identity. And that led to the focus on joy, which he which I heard. I
Allistair McCaw 05:19
heard that that was, a great a great episode, one of them on the podcast, unfortunately, I don't think they still do it. But you know, Steve Kerr, who's obviously with the Warriors basketball, visited the Seahawks facility in Seattle and spent two or three days. And one of the questions Pete asked Steve was, how are you going to lead? And Steve didn't quite understand the question. He said, Well, you know, I'm going to run this defense. And you know, he was talking X's and O's, and Pete was like, No, how are you going to lead your team? How are you going to lead your people? And it made Steve, who's obviously a fantastic coach, and one who's won a few NBA titles as well with the Warriors, had to, had to really take time to think about that. He said he actually went back to the hotel to actually think about that question that Pete had asked. And the next day, he explained to him of how he was going to lead and and one of the principles he spoke about was, you know, Steve Kerr has four principles. I can't remember them all off by heart now, but one of them is joy. And Pete said, Well, if one of them is joy, you better make sure there's joy in that building, otherwise it's just a dead value. So yeah, it was a very interesting conversation.
Paul Barnett 06:37
We also had a great example of this idea of thinking about your identity from Gail costankas, the American basketball coach. I'll insert the audio grab here where she talks about that. So
Gail Goestenkors 06:50
I guess the biggest thing that I've learned through all this was and I learned it when I first became ahead. You have to coach to your identity to your personality. When I had worked for Lynn for six years at Purdue, and then I finally got my first head coaching job at Duke University, I tried to be Lynn Dunn you know she was, she was my greatest mentor, and so I was trying to be her for maybe my first two years before I realized I can't do this. It's not working. She has a distinct style of play. She had a distinct personality, and I didn't have that personality, and so I had to learn to be comfortable in my own skin and figure out what is going to work best for me, because then when you get into your comfort zone, you're a much better coach. You're more authentic, and the players respond to that.
Paul Barnett 07:42
So tell me, Alistair, what do you think are the the elements that make up leadership identity, if you were to start scribbling it on a page, what are the big buckets that you'd be filling in words under?
Allistair McCaw 07:54
Yeah, I love using keywords, you know. If I was to ask you as a leader, okay? How do you want to be seen as a leader? What would be some of the keywords? An example could be trustful, honest, confident, whatever those could be is just, it's a simple exercise of writing down keywords of how you want to be seen as a leader. But there's five. There's five things that make up your leadership identity. The first one is your values and your beliefs, that's where it all all begins, right there. And again, you might have values of and beliefs within your culture or within your organization, but as a leader, what are your values and beliefs? The second one is, what I like to term is your vibe, your energy, your aura. How do people feel when you walk into a room, and you know, as a leader, I believe that you're either a thermostat or a thermometer, and a thermostat keeps the as you know, just controls the temperature within a room, but a thermo thermometer controls it. So are you a leader, for example, like a Jurgen club who walks into a room, and can pick up that energy in that room straight away. So you know. The second one, your vibe, your energy is important. How do people feel? You know? Because when you walk into a room, your vibe introduces you before you even say a word. The third one, Paul is your interpersonal skills and your ability to get along with others. I think that's a very important one. Now, there's two things I believe that every leader needs, is to be respected and to be liked, and those are two very difficult things to achieve. Now, you can be respected and not liked, okay? So you can be respected for your your values, your beliefs the way you lead, for example, but not necessarily liked. Maybe you're not good with people in that way, or you can be liked and not respected. So you just might be that that person that's a leader who doesn't want to confront issues, who doesn't want to address the difficult conversations they just they just might be like. By others, but they're not necessarily respected as a leader. But when you can achieve being respected and liked as a leader, that's the that's the magic formula, formula, right there. And that's not, not easy. The fourth one, I believe, is that your communication skills, you know, I think, I think it was on LinkedIn, was the top 10 most desirable traits in, excuse me, in the workplace and employees. And number one for the second year in a row is communication, good communication skills. So that's never going to never going to die out. Communication skills are never going to get old. And I believe, as leader, that you cannot over communicate enough a message. The best cultures I've been in that have leaders who are continually communicating the message, reminding their team of what their culture stands for, reminding them What the What behaviors, actions, all these things they over communicate. And then the last one when it comes to your leadership, identity is your problem solving and and decision making skills. You know, great leaders are problem solvers. They're they're able to come up with solutions quicker. They don't spend much time on on the problem, and they make decisions. Now, not all great leaders make the right decisions, but they gain trust and confidence through their people by making a decision. And like I said, it's not always the right decision, but they are respected for making a decision.[PB2] So if I run through those five again, quickly, number one, your values and beliefs. Number two, your vibe, your energy. Number three, your interpersonal skills. Number four, your communication skills, and number five, your problem solving and decision making skills.
Paul Barnett 11:45
This is a, this is a great list. I mean, I've heard you talk about being liked before and saying, you know, likeability is your best ability as a leader, but I love this idea of vibe. And actually, you know this, this idea of a leadership identity is something I took on, I heard you talk to Ben Ryan about it on Ben's podcast. And Ben, of course, is terrific coach in his own right, and now head of high performance at Brentford FC and over in England. But it was, it was sort of that conversation, and a conversation with Ben afterwards that sort of led me to articulate a leadership identity of high care, high challenge. When I was when I was moving into Romania, had taken on a new role there, leading the brewery. And so I think there's a very real, real, tangible benefit from sitting down and doing this. And it doesn't have to be at the start of when you're moving into something new. It can be when you're in the middle of a of your tenure in a particular leadership role. Which kind of leads me to the next question Alistair, which is, do you actually need to be in a leadership position to write down what your what your leadership identity
Allistair McCaw 12:51
is? No, not at all. You know, as I mentioned in the beginning, there, you can be a parent, you could be working in a supermarket, you could be in the police, for example, it's important to identify how you're going to operate, how you're going to function, regardless of what position you're in. I think it's crucial that more people actually think about this. As I mentioned, it's incredible how many leaders have asked that actually don't, haven't thought about this, but they've thought about their culture. They've thought about all the other things that go around an organizational structure, except the way they lead.
Paul Barnett 13:30
Yeah, one of the key things I've found about great coaches is they understand the performance impact of their leadership in a way that I think corporate leaders don't. So they see themselves as instrumental in the outcome, and they spend a lot of time reflecting on it. Often they will call it their coaching philosophy. But they all know their values, they all think about their behaviors, and interestingly, they all surround themselves with mentors that help them, you know, review how they're presenting themselves to the people they're leading. So I think this idea of a leadership identity is very much alive in the in the people that that we've been interviewing. But having said that, what, what do you think are the benefits that accrue to somebody and their teams are just taking the time to go through this exercise.
Allistair McCaw 14:27
Yeah, I think the biggest one, Paul would be self awareness, is that it creates a better self awareness in terms of who you are, how you lead, how you behave, how you conduct meetings, for example, how you deal with the harder issues, the tougher conversations, all these things, when you when you have that leadership identity, you're able to identify things, strengths, weaknesses. For example, I like to call the strengths your superpowers. And I believe every this is something that that goes back to my my time working with a lot of athletes, is that I believe. That to be great at something, you need at least two superpowers. So if we look at a if we look at a professional tennis player, for example, they need two superpowers, two strengths. So in the men's game, for example, it'll be a serve and forehand, for example, your best players all have those, those two, two weapons. But what are your two superpowers as a leader, maximize those as much as you can as a coach. I've in all my years of working with leaders and coaches, I've never met one that had it all, that has it all. They all have their strengths. They all have their weaknesses. And, you know, working with the great Nick Bollettieri and being around these type of people like you just mentioned there now, Paul, they understand what they're not good at, and they get better people around them. Just, I think it's that quote by Steve Jobs as well about, you know, or was, I can't remember if it was Steve Jobs or, yeah, I think it was who said, you know, just, why should I hire people that are that I'm smarter than is that you just get better people around you. So I think, I think that's one of them. And then, yeah, I mentioned self awareness is the biggest one. Is the best way to improve yourself is through self reflection and that and that helps your self awareness. I
Paul Barnett 16:20
like this idea of a leadership identity extending beyond an individual. And I give you an example. My daughter's changed to schools this year, and we went along and the first day, and principal gave us a speech, and he described the philosophy of the school being high support, but high expectations. And it really resonated with me, because I could see that it was a rallying cry, you know, for the way the staff would engage with with the kids. And I I just wonder whether, whether it is possible to extend this idea into into organizations and teams. Have you come across any other examples of that? Um, wolfhanda,
Allistair McCaw 16:58
I wouldn't be able to think of it, but I do like that. What was that? Again, high support and high expectations.
Paul Barnett 17:03
Yeah, and I think it resonated with me because it was very similar to that idea that I'd heard Ben talk about, high care, high challenge. And the two sort of working in tandem with each other to produce a better outcome. I'm going to challenge you, and I'm going to care about you, and the more I care, the more I can challenge. It was sort of like this, this, this perpetuating circle
Allistair McCaw 17:21
now that I think about it. So I do have an example Paul on that is I remember a particular French rugby club I was working with four years ago, maybe just before the pandemic. And one of the challenges that I could see straightaway, was that there was high expectations, but not enough support. So there was all these expectations and goals and so on and so forth. Which you know, which we know are, you know, outcome goals are not always controllable. But there was, there wasn't the support. And when I got speaking to to some of the the employees of of this organization, that was one of the first things they brought up, was that they don't find they have enough support in the areas of where they're expected to Excel, or even do things that they haven't done before. So that's a very that's a very interesting one, is that if you are going to have high expectations and drive high standards, for example, then there better be a support system, there better be something of what, you know, it's very important of what, what that looks like, you know. So, yeah, that's, that's one of the examples I can think of where there was high expectations but less support.
Paul Barnett 18:32
I think also you, I know that you, you're a big fan of Liverpool, and I actually like Thomas Frank, the Brentford coach, and I think both of them talk about love and care. But I sense in both of those organizations, this philosophy of love and care extends beyond the coach. I think it is endemic in the organization, and I think they found a way to unite people through the organization around that idea. I've never been there. It's just a thought. But they're so they perform so consistently well, that there must be something about the DNA of the place.
Allistair McCaw 19:04
Yeah. I mean, I've been to Brentford a few times, and visited Ben Ryan there, who's done an exceptional job. I mean, they're a club with, I think, one of the lowest budgets in the Premier League, and the fact that they've been there already for, I think, five seasons now, four or five seasons is incredible, absolutely incredible to stay in that Premier League, which is, which is so, so tough. You know, Ben has done an incredible job there in on the performance side and culture side, and, yeah, with Thomas as well. You know, one of the things I picked up being at Brentford is just the alignment, the alignment from the very top to, I don't like to say the bottom, because there is nobody at the bottom of the food chain, but there's just alignment, there's an understanding, there's great communication, those things that we've just spoken about now. And I think Thomas Frank, I agree with you, Paul, he's an exceptional, exceptional leader and coach. I
Paul Barnett 19:57
wonder whether he'll be the next coach you'll live with, Paul, but. Let's pick that up. After the podcast, we could have a chat. I want to come back to decision making. You. You referenced it as one of the big five in leadership by identity. Why do you think it's important to to have thought through your identity when it comes to decision making? What's the link there that's that's important. I think
Allistair McCaw 20:22
that falls back to the first one your values and your beliefs is that you're going to make decisions that are difficult, but the but they're the right decisions are not the easy decisions. And again, that all links Paul, we spoke about the importance of communication. We spoke about that you gain trust and a buy in from your people when you are a leader who is able to problem solve and make decisions. And again, I'll say it again, is that they don't always make the right decisions, but they do take, take, take action and make a decision. Now, obviously it can cost you a job if you're continually making too many bad decisions and bad choices, for example, but respect and trust is given to a leader when they are making the tough calls that are making the decisions. And again, a great leader will fall back on their values and their beliefs. And again, that's why it's so important. I believe it's so important that you do understand your leadership identity, you do understand your values and your beliefs, because that's what leads you, essentially. And then
Paul Barnett 21:31
once you've got this document, you've spent some time talking about it and refining it. Alistair, what do you encourage people to do with it? Do you Do you want them to put it out into the world? Is it something personal? What's What's the sweet spot there? No,
Allistair McCaw 21:45
I think, I think it's important to first of all assess how you lead, and that can be actually a very painful process in terms of self reflection, but also asking others around you in terms of how they see you as a leader. And you've got to be prepared for what comes back there. You cannot create a safe a safe environment, a safe place, if you're going to ask somebody about their opinion on something and then you you disagree, snap back at them, or, you know, they're not going to want to give you that feedback or open up to you in the future if you're reacting that way. So, you know, one way is the, what I like to call the shoebox way, which is actually very funny. It's on one of the TED lasso episodes, where he says, Let's get feedback from from the team and and then when they start reading the when they start reading the comments, I'm not going to mention any of them on here, but you can just imagine, but you've got to be ready for, for that, feedback. Another thing that identity is is important is, is that you're you're willing to, again, understand your strengths and your weaknesses. You're willing to work on them. You also have an idea of how you want to lead. So it's a sort of goals, for example. And that's why I say just keywords are great. You know, again, those keywords could be, I want to be a more confident leader. I want to be a more available leader. I want to be a more consistent leader, a good communicator. Could be a few of those things. Now, don't write down 15 things, because that's like, you know, writing down your New Year's resolutions and you struggle to get past the first one, but maybe writing down two, maximum three things that that remind you of how you want to lead and see those every day. Have them on your on your desk in your office, for example.[PB3]
Paul Barnett 23:33
Alistair, if it's not asking too much, what are the words on your desk in your office right now?
Allistair McCaw 23:41
What are the words on my desk? You know, Paul, you always, you always throw, throw something to catch. I'm going to say that one of the words is consistency. It's definitely consistency. Communication is there as well. Problem solving is, is one as well. Because I believe that, you know, I think it was Tony Robbins, the great motivational speaker, said the difference between successful and unsuccessful people comes down to how quickly they solve problems. And I think something that you also mentioned that was very interesting, Paul, this is, is that you get paid in relation to the problems that you solve. And it was very, it was a very powerful statement that that I remember as well, but I say consistency, Paul, consistency and how you show up each day. Now, every day might not be great, but there's always, there's something great to be found in every day. You know, it's impossible. I write motivational books. I write books and positivities, but on positivity. But am I always positive? No. Am I sometimes moody? Yes, but through that self awareness that helps with with with you picking up on those things, well,
Paul Barnett 24:52
consistency is something that you are exceptional at you you're writing on social media. I'm not, as we often say to you, I'm not a huge. Social media consumer, but there has been moments when I have looked at particularly Twitter and seen a post from you that's impacted me. And one of those was during the pandemic, when I was in Romania and was leading the business there, and there was a war on the border with Ukraine, and it was a stressful time. And one of your posts said, What if everybody in the room felt like you today, and it just really impacted me. It really made me realize that, you know, there was a lot of lot of anxiety in the room, and that my role as a leader, getting back to your thermostat or temperature gage analogy was was most important in that moment. So your consistency is appreciated. Alistair, at least in this at least in this house. Thank you Paul. Thank
Allistair McCaw 25:40
you, Paul, it's a, it's a, it's a project in the works. So Alistair,
Paul Barnett 25:44
it's always great chatting with you. Thank you for making the time to talk about leadership, identity. I think it's, I think it's an emerging idea. I think it's a wonderful one. And appreciate you sharing thoughts with us today.
Allistair McCaw 25:55
Always a pleasure. Thanks so much for having me. Paul.
Paul Barnett 26:00
Alistair, I'll interject. I'll put about three or four good, really good quotes, audio grabs through that. I've got some great stuff on. I