psychology edit
Tue, Aug 29, 2023 9:37PM • 35:28
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, leaders, organizations, talk, team, leadership, groups, singing, book, sam, micromanagement, relationships, feel, oxford, synchrony, rituals, traditions, human, connection, sense
SPEAKERS
Samantha Rockey, Paul Barnett
Paul Barnett 00:00
Samantha Rocky. Good morning, and welcome to the Great coach's podcast.
Samantha Rockey 00:06
Good morning, Paul, lovely to see you, even though it is on Zoom.
Paul Barnett 00:10
Sam, I've been looking forward to this interview for a long, long time. We've known each other for many, many years. And you've put out this amazing book and I can't wait to pull it apart for you and find all the lessons that are appropriate for the audience. But Sam, something easy to get his going? Where are you in the world? And what have you been up to so far today?
Samantha Rockey 00:31
So Paul, I'm in Guilford in Surrey in the UK, I haven't done much this morning, I have to be honest, I've fit the dog and watch the dog in the garden. I and I've sent my young people off to work to their various workplaces. And by young people, I mean, my children. So haven't been hugely productive. But it is a fantastic morning, the sun is shining, and it's about 8am. So all is good, it promises to be an excellent day.
Paul Barnett 01:00
Well, Sam, I'm very excited to talk about the social brain, the psychology of successful groups. And I wanted to start actually, by talking about the fact that the book focuses on the cultural magic is what what you call it, those are the words you use, that makes an organization feel truly human. And, as you say, create a sense of connection and belonging. So but Sam, what I wanted to start by asking you is based on all the research you did in the book, and all the experience you have in the corporate world, what do you think are the benefits that you have seen for groups that try to make themselves feel more human?
Samantha Rockey 01:41
Well, I think in my many, many years working in organizations, and particularly teams, because I think culture happens at the, at the level of the team, and then expand out from there. So how people experience work is often affected by the teams that they work in. In fact, it's always affected by the teams that they work in, and particularly the leader of the team and their colleagues. So by really focusing on creating a space in which everybody in their team feels that they're able to bring themselves to work in the best possible way. It's an unleashing of, or kind of asked why one would pay attention to creating teams that feel culturally safe, that feel a place in which people are able to bring their ideas that people are able to speak up, and to talk about what's important to them, they're able to lean into work that really gives them meaning. And essentially, what we're doing is we're allowing the full expression of human potential. [PB1]
Its through team membership and in particular the teams leader that people experience the culture of the organisations they belong to.
And it strikes me very frequently, actually, when I'm working across lots of different organizations, that you could have exactly the same configuration in a team, you could have seven people, they could have a leader, they could be essentially working on similar kinds of projects or tasks or focus areas, but there will be a huge difference of experience of what it feels like to be part of their team. And that has been the work that has always interested me. And increasingly, as we talk to people about our book, we know that there are components that will really add that magic. And that will give people a real sense of awe feeling connected, I see this every single day in my work. And I think that the kind of latent potential that exists in some teams is heartbreaking. It's unproductive, it's inefficient, it just is a complete waste of human resource. So our real approach with the book is about how you flip that, how do you make sure that we get the full expense of what is out there. And in in there actually also, I mean, how people are feeling within themselves in the greater context.
Paul Barnett 03:57
Sam, in the book, you say, this is a quote, It is a leaders job to create an environment within within which people can thrive both as individuals and as a collective. This is as true for a hockey team as it is for a multinational insurance company. Now, you work with leaders all the time through your work with with Oxford and through through your own consultancy, but with the leaders that you work with, do they take does it take you long to convince them that this is actually their role? I think so many
Samantha Rockey 04:28
does. Yes. I think I think leadership is one of those odd anomalies where people don't put up their hand early in their career, and say, I really want to manage a large team in 10 years time. It comes upon people, and often for not necessarily all the right reasons. So and we know this from from all the research that there are many, many people who are technical experts, but because they're so expert in their area, they get promoted into being a leader of a team. And I think the the requirements for a leader is a very different And to ask, and I think that for some leaders is comes, I wouldn't say naturally, but many people have experienced what it's like to be led by someone that has been really good for them. So they have a role model, they have a template. But for some people where they haven't experienced that they're kind of technical experts being forced now to lead a large team. And they actually just want to do the work. It's, we talk a lot about it in the book, actually, it's exhausting on many levels to be always thinking about the human side, and the relationships, because it's cognitively much easier to focus on task.
So the ask of leaders is a stretch, actually, we're asking people to do something that is actually more tiring, and more energizing, and wonderful in in many, many ways. But it's not an easy, it's not the easy thing. The easy thing is staying as a technical expert and doing your doing your work. That is just simpler cognitively. [PB2]
So we talked about the the relationships in our book, and how important it is to create healthy, productive relationships. And of course, it takes up a lot of energy, which is why when we co authored with Professor Robin Dunbar, he's known for the Dunbar number, which is the the number of productive relationships, you can have it at any given time, which is about 150, there's a real acknowledgement that there's a kind of, there's a brain size capacity. So for every new relationship, you create, and you connect with new people in your team, you're having to give something else up. Because we can't maintain an endless number of relationships. So I think poor, convincing some leaders is a tough job. And for some people, it just is not really what they necessarily interested in doing. And what is really will give them joy and happiness either. And I think we really need to recognize that. But of course, for other leaders, it's a magnificent opportunity that absolutely love the opportunity to grow and develop people in their teams. So there's probably an optimistic answer as much as one might want. But I think it just to go back to the beginning of when people get selected for these roles. I think we need to live in an organizational world in which it's fine for some people to remain with technical expertise, and not being and it's not connected to the promotion into leadership.
Her view that technical expertise should not necessarily lead to leadership positions.
Paul Barnett 07:36
There'll be a lot of people nodding, when they hear about you talk of the exhaustive nature of leadership. And then, of course, you do talk about the Dunbar number as well, which is the number I think I encoded it is the number of relationships we can have with a product productively at any one point in time. But Sam, what can people do as people lead increasingly larger groups of people, and they become more distant from the people they're leading? Is there anything they can do to improve the quality of their relationships? As that distance expands?
Samantha Rockey 08:11
I think that's such a brilliant question. Because what we're always grappling with, in organizational settings is scale. And we don't talk, you know, it's not part of the conversation really, which is one of the reasons that we actually wrote the book, is because
we think scale is such an important component of successful organizations and successful groups, we use the quote that you can only really be seen in small, manageable groups. So any of us can only really be known and seen in small groups of other humans in small social groups, that is our evolutionary legacy, so to speak. So the kind of permission given to lead leaders really to, even as the organization's expand in size, is to really focus on developing other leaders is kind of having a ripple effect. So if you might imagine throwing a pebble into into water is that the leader needs you know, for leaders, the pebble in this in this example, is that what they're doing is that they are building out from the middle so that every single layer has good leadership. Because once you reach the number of about 150, as a leader, you can't know people, people are projecting all their hopes and fears on you, you really are just an image. [PB3]
How the focus of leaders should be to create other leaders so that they can create a ripple effect throughout the organisation.
So, you know, to acknowledge that you can't in an organization of 10,000 people be known as you truly are. All you can do is you can build out the brilliant leaders in the next concentric circles and imagine that you that that is your job, that is your role as a leader, taking the values and the purpose of the organization and kind of weaving them through The work that you do. So I think the first acknowledgement is that when you are leading a team is that there's a constraint to how, how known you'll ever be, and more focused on building leaders around you. And that is one of the key focus areas of our book, actually, how do you build good leadership around you. And we know that about 60% of people's social time is spent with just 15 people. And that, you know, we are not spending as leaders, huge amounts of time with big groups of people, we just cannot. It's impossible. It's beyond the human gift. So it is about growing those around you. And I think sort of the first act of real leadership is doing that actually is focusing on growing that leadership around you.
Paul Barnett 10:54
It's interesting, Sam, you use the pebble analogy to illustrate the impact a leader can have. And you you talk about that in the context in the book around micromanaging. In fact, I've got another quote from you. And I'd like to read it to you before I ask the question, you say, it is not a leaders job to micromanage an organization, but rather to design a structure within which it can become a self correcting learning community, that changes as it develops, I love this idea of self correcting and learning and evolving without the leader having to be the person that propels that forward. And I'm just wondering, Sam, is there been something in the last few years that's, that's caught your eye, that's a really good example of this type of leadership being played out?
Samantha Rockey 11:39
I think there are lots of different examples. And we see this in the work that we do some people do this incredibly well. I think, for anyone who's ever worked in an organization, the idea of control over people around you, which is another form, which is a form of micromanagement is so destructive. And in fact, I was reading a piece of a book by Paul Gilbert, who's a famous psychologist who wrote the compassionate mind and he says that 60 to 70% of people are stressed because of the behavior of their superiors, he uses the word superior because we are hierarchical in nature. So people who are seen hierarchically as more as more superior to ours can create great levels of anxiety and, and stress. The Gallup survey that came out about two weeks ago says a 10% of UK workers are engaged, which is quite these are shocking numbers, really. So there's something in the mix. And I think micromanagement is the kind of ultimate expression of poor leadership because in a sense, it's about controlling to control what is actually uncontrollable. So we've really flipped that idea. And we've drawn on companies like going associates who have a lattice structure. So they are always thinking about growing the leaders around them about thinking of their own organization much more as a kind of horizontal effect, rather than a traditional pyramid, hierarchical structure.
So there is something in the design of organizations in the thinking around bringing people together around a common purpose. And having a light touch leadership that is much more focused on principles rather than rules, that is focused on giving people an outcome to focus on rather than the the input behavior, which is, which is where you really do see micromanagement come up against against this particular challenge. So we do have lots of examples in our book where people have really thought about this carefully, and structured the organization's accordingly. [PB4]
The research that says 60% to 70% of people are stressed because of the behaviour of their superiors. And the implications of this for you as a leader.
So I think, Paul, there lots of people being quite experiment, metal in the space. And it's often got to do with thinking about the design of the organizations in a very different way. And not not going to the classic pyramid design, which is very brittle, and really only sort of benefits the people right at the top. So thinking much more as a letter structure, thinking of the interactions between individuals, and thinking how the leader can unlock their potential potential, and really thinking about things in a more of an organic, an ecosystem way. And we see organizations doing this and it goes against the traditional industrial revolution idea of, you know, the kind of production line which is very mechanistic widgets and, you know, Bolson when it was like, organizations don't work like that organizations are made up of people in relationship with other people. And how do you create that interaction as the place in which ideas come and the work happens. And organizations that really understand that do this well. But it's tough. It is tough.
Paul Barnett 15:11
Well, Samantha, if it's any, any consolation, we've had a couple of coaches, only a couple out of 100 plus that we've interviewed, talk about letting micromanagement go, and the results that came from that. And the most famous story came from an Australian rules football club we have here in Australia, called the Richmond tigers and their coach went on a journey that started by attending Harvard, actually, he went and did an authentic leadership cause Ken, he came back and he realized that he needed to get behind away from his keyboard and start engaging a little bit more. So I think there is also evidence in the sporting world that moving away from micromanaging can really work. But I want to go back a little bit and talk about pyramids and lattices, which was the language you used. And I think there is a danger I, I feel in any team, that they can become too inward looking, they can become too focused on their relationships, they can come too focused on making sure that there is a very comfortable environment for everyone to express themselves. And they can be too inward looking, and that can lead to groupthink. Now, I just am curious to see or to hear your thoughts on how the best teams ensure that this doesn't happen?
Samantha Rockey 16:26
We've thought a lot about that question, Paul. Because I think, you know, one of the sort of premises of, of understanding how social groups work is that we're all drawn to hierarchy, in some form, that humans love hierarchy. I mean, we'd love to know who who's in charge in his political life bet. But at the same time, we're incredibly drawn to autonomy, and to being empowered and to having a sense of our own agency. So we're always running in this tension. And we can't, we can't ignore that fact, we have to within the idea of how we designed organizations and how we think about organizations, we do have to acknowledge this tension. Now, of course, what you're describing is where you've crossed the threshold, essentially, where things get to cozy. And we've got a wonderful, sort of wonderful way of expressing that these moments of threshold, you know, for culture, it's when you move from culture to cult, there is a moment where you can see this really intense culture in which nobody else is really invited. That's not what good culture looks looks like. But you you can feel it when you go into some organizations, there's such a sense of us and them. So there are these thresholds that exist. And I think your threshold about groupthink is absolutely spot on. We've got we use some wonderful examples in our book.
But if a group of people are brought together to do a project, for example, it's really comfortable if you with people that you know, you can get to the answer really quite well. And in a in a quite a joyful way, you know, working with old colleagues who've got a history with and so on. But it's not necessarily the most innovative way. So there has to be a way of bringing in some form of disruption all the time. And a lot of our work is about what is the right level of provocation needed to mix things up a little bit. [PB5]
But it's not always it's horses for courses, because sometimes you just want to solve a technical problem. And then getting a group of experts together who can shortcut it really quickly, who can use language that everyone understands it's speed, it's a crisis, that's the kind of group you'd want to put together. But if you want to do something more expressive, more innovative, more future oriented, then you need to design it really quite differently. So what I'm talking about organizational design, again, is being really thoughtful about how you construct those project groups. And I think from a lot of the work and many people will will describe this is that actually having a Polymathic approach, bringing in a wide range of experts to solve a knotty problem is probably one of the most effective ways of getting to an innovative solution. And history, you know, is awash with examples of were really difficult. problems have been solved by bringing in people from completely diverse perspectives. But there is a caveat to that. It's harder and more difficult, because it requires work upfront, and it's the work upfront, that is the the invitation because once that team has had a way of connecting and building relationships, then the possibility is there. So The examples that we use in our book are things like where people bump into each other at the water cooler, for example, and have an interesting conversation. Well, in this case, it was a Xerox machine. The founders of the m&r sort of technology, which was then later used for the COVID vaccine came from two completely different perspectives. So we do need this in teams to be innovative, that's an absolute. That's absolutely critical. But at the same time, we also need to recognize that there's some work that needs to be done at the front end to get it right.
The importance of disrupting your teams by bringing in ideas and stimulus from outside, and making sure that the membership is diverse.
Paul Barnett 20:34
So can we talk about that work at the front end, because you cover in the book, you talk about it, in the sense of belonging. Now, the process of welcoming new people into teams in the sporting environment, you've got one extreme, which is the, you know, the New Zealand Rugby team, the All Blacks that have these routines, and rituals, and you know, handing over new caps handing over jumpers, there's these rituals that they're really celebrated for generations. But in other groups, it's just as simple as as a handshake. But what have you learned around the initiation, the work up front, that needs to happen with new team members in order for that innovation and magic to happen?
Samantha Rockey 21:19
I am big on Rachel on taking time out for connection on being strategic about it as strategic as you would be about a marketing strategy or finance strategy. We need to be strategic about our social strategy, we need to have a social strategy. We've just done some research with Gen z's, which, obviously, in every single media article, you read about the younger generation, it just sounds, you know that no one wants to work and basically, you know, two sort of pressures to spend time at work and so on. And we kind of pushed against that and said, Well, is that true? I mean, are young people like that? Well, of course, and surprisingly, they're not. They're human beings who want to go into the workplace and derive great comforts by the rituals. So knowing that every Friday, people are going to have lunch together, you might not want to opt in. But knowing that it's there, knowing that you are going to be greeted by your team leader on the first day of work, we have really sort of explored the importance of beginnings and endings. And you're all blacks example is a wonderful example, isn't it? Oh, an east with talks about it in his book, belonging, the kinds of things, the sort of gentle introductions into this world in which you are part of for a period of time, you won't be there forever, but you're, you have an opportunity to really leave something that's so powerful for the next generation. So I think having been really committed to this idea of what these important pieces are, that make a person feel like they're connecting to something and they belong to something, I think is critical in organizations. And I reflect on my own an organization that I was part of, for nearly 18 years, there were absolute rituals, you know, things that happened regularly. And that gave a great sense of structure around what the culture expected, and what I could contribute to that culture in turn as well. So it was a conversation. It wasn't an imposition. And I think that is the that is the joy of rituals and traditions, and ways of practice that are consistent, but that I open ended enough that people can also feel that they can contribute to the changes. I mean, we don't want culture to be a static thing.
Paul Barnett 23:52
Tradition. Let's talk about that for a minute. Because your team at Oxford is not far from where the the annual and very famous boat race takes place. And I'm just curious, what have you learned, if anything, from observing that over the years?
Samantha Rockey 24:10
Well, full disclosure, I haven't observed the boat race. But I have observed another tradition at Oxford, which really stuck with me actually. I attended a graduation and when the graduation began it first of all, it was held in the most beautiful building that had been, you know, been around in Oxford for four generations. But the person who was leading the graduation said some of this will seem somewhat obscure, and a lot of it is in Latin still. And obviously, no one SPEAKS LATIN anymore. She said, you know, but I do want to say that we have kept the traditions of the graduation in Oxford, because for every person who walks through these doors as a graduate, what your experience is exactly what Word others before you have experienced, and in a sense, we're all here because of those before us. So acknowledging that long line of people who came before us, I think, is a very powerful human need. And it also creates a sense of responsibility, actually, I'm here because in the future, there will be those that come, come after me. So what am I doing to contribute to the sense of, to the sense of, of connection and importance. And I think humans in a sense, are we're wired to, to feel the sense of connection to our past. And I think that happens well through traditions. But either way, I would not have said this when I was much younger. This is this has come to me, as I've gotten older. I think when I was younger, I thought all traditions were terrible. And probably I would have sat in that graduation and thought, Gosh, let's get it into English and have a bit more modern music. But in retrospect, now, I'm really thankful that that hasn't happened, actually. Because it was quite beautiful. And you really got a sense of the connection to the past. So I'm, I'm a fan of ritual and tradition, the right rituals and traditions, by the way, and not to anything that's not not healthy and productive and empowering. Well, you,
Paul Barnett 26:19
you talk a little bit about yourself in the book, you go into your backstory, and you were a part of you grew up in South Africa, and you were there pre apartheid, and you worked in the post apartheid South Africa. So you saw a lot of change, you saw cultural shifts, you saw societal shifts, people's mindset shifts, but the story that you shared in the book that really stuck with me was singing. Now I know, it's gonna sound a bit strange, but you had a choir at work, there was a choir, and that choir got me thinking about the role that singing plays, because it's a very big part of sport, particularly, not so much. You know, in Australia, but particularly in England, the crowd sings, teams have songs, people are always engaged in singing, you know, I'm intrigued, again, Sam, to just understand what you've learned around the power of singing and perhaps even just voice when it comes to teams?
Samantha Rockey 27:19
Well, I think I mean, we were doing a podcast a week ago with Robin are co author, and someone said, you know, what is the most effective way that you can get to foster connection. And he said, It's singing, and he uses this example, all the time, because most organizations are not going to be starting their morning singing together, although there are some organizations, by the way, who have done that. But when we typically don't sing at work, but it is an the fastest way to connect with those around you, in fact, singing together has been proven once you've had sort of half an hour of singing with your colleagues or your friends, or in fact, complete strangers, you feel a real connection with with that person, and with that group. So we have as almost as humans been designed in a way to sing together. And it is a fantastic bonding experience. So what I learned from that little example, was that the mere act of having a group of people coming together to sing did something incredibly important, about you know, that was healing. Growing up in South Africa, people sing all the time. I mean, you know, beginning conferences, there'll be singing, I mean, I kind of feel like singing is very much part of, of the culture and tradition, which is it was absolutely wonderful. So libraryplus petition, I'm a big fan of singing as well singing together. I mean, I'm a terrible singer. So it's not like I would want to start my own choir. But I just think we did a little exercises today that involved a bit of music, and I kind of thought, wouldn't it be fantastic if we all sang along now, it would just be a way of getting this whole group on the same page together really, really quickly. So big fan of singing. And you mentioned the Oxford and Cambridge boat race, actually, and I was reflecting on this idea of synchrony, walking together, rowing together, anything which we do in synchrony with another human being or other groups of humans is a fast track to connection. So if you don't want to sing together, which might seem a bit extreme, the other option is to go for a walk with somebody, we call them walk shops. And that is walking in synchrony with a partner, and the depth of conversation you might have. And the other little example, which might once again seem a bit obscure, but actually works very effectively is doing an activity together, which is out of completely out of both of your comfort zones. So at the moment, we're working And in partnership with the Victorian Albert Museum in London, and we've got a group who are focusing on building belonging. And we're working with somebody who, who's the curator of, of painting. And he is encouraging people to work in small pairs. Well, of course, there will be small they are appears in pairs together, using charcoal to draw portraits of each other. And these are people who've never met each other before, and the power and depth of the conversation, when you're really looking at somebody else, and you're doing something, which is really creates laughter, which by the way, is another way of frustrating connection. You're doing something in synchrony, you both growing each other, you're having a different quality of conversation. So it doesn't have to be singing poor, but there are lots of things we can do in synchrony with, with people to create that connection.
Paul Barnett 30:56
Sam, you started off by talking about the kids, and asked you where you were in the world what you've been doing. You've had a great career in the corporate world, and now you've crossed over, you've created your own business, you work with Oxford, and you've written this fantastic book that allowed you to interview leaders from all over the world. What changes have you made? To your leadership style at work? Or your life at home? Based on what you've discovered?
Samantha Rockey 31:26
That's such a good question. I think there are lots and lots of different changes that I've made. You know, starting this process, I was in a corporate environment. And I think when I reflect back on that, on the ecosystem, and it connects to what you said earlier, Paul, is that when one works in a large organization, it's quite easy actually to lose sight of what's going on externally. And being really mindful of the challenges and the sort of stresses and strains that people might be experiencing outside of your own quite cozy ecosystem. So when I left a large corporate, I was able to sort of turn up as a bit more, I think, and that has been that has been a wonderful gift. So I think my leadership feels more externally oriented, which has been great actually, and bringing in different kinds of ideas. From a personal leadership point of view, I have really committed to a practice of being more mindful and being more present. And I think never, it's probably feels so urgent at the moment with social media and with access to digital and we living in an AI, you know, an AI dominated world. Well, it feels like that anyway, if you if you read the media, so building those human connections, and beginning with self and a sense of calm and gathered self, I think is the place I always begin when when talking to other leaders, and when thinking about myself actually is, is how do you begin each day, in a centered fashion, because leadership, after all, is about your relationship with your own self, and making sure that it is in the best possible way and space, and then expanding that outwards. So I think as a parent, certainly, I have thought a lot about doing the things that we're talking about. So walking together, doing things in synchrony, being absolutely present to my children, as much as I can be, and it's a big ask, because we are bombarded on the daily, but really, really trying to do that. And I always use the example of some leaders that that that we've worked with over the years is the best leaders I know are the ones who have ease, actually, the idea that they can have a meeting with you or conversation with you and they have ease, they can sit back in their chair, and they can look like they've all the time in the world. And I think that is the greatest gift as a leader to really feel like you are in a space in which you can see other people people shine when they are fully seen. So I think both as parents and as leaders, if we can really see someone else, I love this greeting from South Africa. So Borna, which means I see you and I always draw on that because this absolute human need to be seen. And then to feel seen, there is no greater gift than that. I was reading a brilliant book on friendship and somewhere and I remember a particular quote saying that the gift of friendship is that your friend sees you, and in return, you see them. So yeah, so I would say that that's my big leadership lesson is really being present and beginning with self and practicing a bit of mindfulness and meditation and gratitude. How lucky we all are.
Paul Barnett 34:59
About that. It's a great book. I loved it. We didn't even get on to thriving teams today, which is another, which was possibly the part of the book that resonated with me the most. But I'm hoping we can have a follow up and talk about that more in depth that it's been wonderful listening to you today. Thank you so much for sharing your time and energy with us and I look forward to chatting to you more in the future.
Samantha Rockey 35:21
Thank you so much, Paul. And thank you very much for giving me the time to talk about our book