tough times lesson
Tue, May 23, 2023 9:07PM • 36:57
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
coaches, tough, compassion, people, talk, leadership, lessons, podcast, great, work, championships, conversation, team, reframing, empathy, grant, quote, questions, interviewed, leaders
SPEAKERS
Paul Barnett, Sandy Brondello, Jim Woolfrey, Bev Priestman, Damien Hardwick, Sean Dyche, Cori Close, Grant Liversage, Eddie Jones
Paul Barnett 00:00
Welcome to the lessons from the great coaches podcast. I've learned that you don't do it alone,
00:06
you learn so many different things from so many different coaches. That's an elite learning environment. How you deal with how to be resilient, how important it is to infuse joy in the process of learning. To be a good candidate, you got to do more than you take. What an interesting way it is to be a leader.
Paul Barnett 00:28
My name is Paul Barnett, and you are listening to the great coach's podcast, where we explore leadership through the lens of high performance sport, by interviewing great coaches from around the world, to try and find ideas to help all of us be better leaders. We started this podcast because we wanted to have better conversations with our families around the dinner table. In a social media world with a goal is often to be the star of the show. We wanted to change the conversation and talk more about selflessness, leadership and responsibility. And the people we knew who best exhibited these qualities were great sports coaches. As the podcast has grown, the great coaches we've interviewed have shared so much insight and wisdom that we decided to create episodes dedicated entirely to the lessons that have resonated with us the most. Today's episode is on the topic of tough times, and what advice the great coaches have in dealing with them. The lessons from the great coaches podcast. Today's episode uses a different format from our previous lessons episodes. I'm joined by Grant live massage for a discussion on tough times. Grant is an executive and leadership coach, and also tutor on the Oxford University side business school economics of mutuality program. He has also been a managing director of international companies in Europe, India and Africa, and lived in places as diverse as Hong Kong, India, Mozambique, Portugal, Zambia, South Africa, and the Czech Republic. His perspective is truly global. And in this conversation, he couples the view of great coaches on leading through tough times, with a perspective from the corporate world. It's a different style of conversation. And I hope you enjoy it as much as we did. Hello, everybody.
Grant Liversage 02:16
It's grant liversedge here, and I've got with me, Paul Barnett, who is the creator and the person behind the great coaches podcast. And what I'm going to be doing today is talking to Paul, about the leadership lessons from these great coaches and how leading in tough times is the subject that we can get wisdom from these great coaches? So maybe just to start off, Paul, I mean, what is tough times?
Paul Barnett 02:48
Well, Grant, it's good to be with you tonight. I love chatting, all things coaching, and it's good to spend a bit of time with you just reflecting on it. So when we were preparing for this, and I was thinking about the way that the great coaches talk about tough times, it's more in relation to your performance is consistently below expectation. And I think it's relevant at the minute because many of us in our business ends up experiencing very tough business conditions. But these are not the tough times that people outside of work are experiencing, you know, men and women who are struggling to make ends meet in the families, we've got this horrible situation on the border near where I live, of course, here in Romania, we've got the Ukraine situation. And I think those are very different tough times. And I don't want to underplay that by the discussion we're going to have tonight around this whole idea of systemic or maybe endemic or ongoing underperformance of the team or the organization that you're a part of. But grant, what about from your perspective? How do you define tough times?
Grant Liversage 03:52
So I think the definitely, you know, your reference sort of underperformance as something that you would regard as a tough time. And of course, the recent past would tend to put that in a less important category, because of the kind of things that are going on around us. I think the most important thing for me is that tough times is so personal, you know, you we could have gone through the same kind of context and events and people experience it differently. And what they find tough in for example, lockdown is different across different people. And the kind of existential stuff that you spoke about, manifests itself differently in in different people's lives. And I guess the hopefully what we're going to explore during this podcast is although how they present are quite different is the kind of tools that you can bring to bear. Let's explore to see if there is commonality through that. So Paul, you've done over 100 episodes now in your podcast with some fantastic coaches and what are the lessons that they've got For leading in tough times.
Paul Barnett 05:03
Now, when I was, you know, when I was preparing for today, when, when we were talking about this topic, I went back through this database I've created with where I've sort of clicked, things that they've said, and I was trying to cluster them. And I think there's sort of three key lessons, I think there's three key learnings that come through in dealing with with tough times. And the first is this idea of reframing it. So thinking about it in terms of something good will come from this, the lesson will be in some way, life enriching. And I've got this quote that I'll, I'll play now from Eddie Jones, the fantastic English rugby coach. He's coached all over the world in Japan and Australia. And, and he he is quite stoic in his approach to coaching. But I think in this quote, he talks a little bit about embracing tough times for what the lessons I can give you.
Eddie Jones 05:55
And I think it's, it's the ability to be able to teach them that it doesn't always have to be fun, and you don't always have to be happy. And at times, there are difficult situations, but there's a fun to, and the fun to sticking at something doing it well. And then achieving, I think it's almost, you've always got to be conscious of the fact there's a fun there that you've got to let up have, you know, and it's teaching players about how do you find that fun to have you understand fun to is something that you've got to stick at, it's going to at times going to be uncomfortable at times, there's going to be bits and pieces where you don't like, and you just keep on trying to find ways to get it through.
Paul Barnett 06:38
The second thing I think that comes through is this whole idea of the lesson, no matter no matter what it is, will eventually be positive. There is always some learning that comes through this this dip that you go through, but you have to mind for it, you have to have have an open mind for it, you have to really, really be on the lookout for it. And I think the quote, I've got the best illustrate illustrates this is Sandy rhondella. Now Sandy is an Australian, she's coached the Australian basketball team, but she coaches in the WNBA in America, and she's she's won the WNBA championship. And she's in New York at the minute. And I think what's good is that she's got two teenage boys. And in the interview, she references life, she references to her family, and she reference references sport, and so this quote, I think, a good one that illustrates that as well.
Sandy Brondello 07:27
You know, everyone sees only the good things, but players even at the top, they go through so much adversity, but I think that was a defining moment. For me that kind of helped to be the person that I am. And that's why it's so important for my teams, I think the most successful teams handle adversity. And if you and really how do you how do you grow as a person and that's what you know, how you or as a sports person is through the negative experience. Now I try and make sure that and you know, I know you've read a quote for me, I say, and I stole it's not my quote, it's, you know, the lesson of the experience is always positive, even though at the time it was negative, and it's very painful. But sometimes we have to go through those hard times to fully appreciate the good times the successful times.
Paul Barnett 08:13
And the third thing, right, and I think this is the one that probably resonated with me the most. And it comes from a lady called Cory close, who is another basketball coach, he's in America. But what's interesting is that one of Korea's mentors was was John Wooden, who's one of the greatest coaches of all time. In fact, if you Google great coaches, his name comes up first. And she had this great philosophy of basically saying your AR, your response must be greater than the E the event. And in this quote, she sort of unpack that a little bit. And she, she starts to talk about your response to the situation and taking control with that. And it really connected with me so and I'll, I'll play that quote from from Corey now as well.
Cori Close 08:54
Okay, at the end of this time that you've not had to sit out, so to speak, what do you want to be able to say about your response? What do you want to be able to look back and go, Man, I chose to strengthen my arm, I chose to respond a certain way. And as a result of those choices, this is what transpired. This was the work I did in the dark that got revealed in the light, so to speak later on. But sometimes when we all tend to look at like our circumstances and go, This is what we can't do, this is what we can do. But when you are committed to your response, or discipline over default, you choose to say, Okay, where is it that I can grow maybe an unpredictable way as this event is hard. This event is not what I would have chosen, but maybe it will force us to the uncomfortable places where the real growth and change happens when you have to make those hard choices that develop deep character and life changing habits. So it's a work in progress. It's an everyday kind of thing.
Grant Liversage 09:52
Now, I mean, that's the this whole thing about reframing and reviewing things from a different angle is such a powerful tool in overcoming what seems to be overwhelming in front of you. The grant,
Paul Barnett 10:07
could I ask you your perspective, when you're you're involved with Oxford, you're, you're engaging with business executives there, you're also coaching people all around the world. And I'm curious to see how the people that you're coaching and connecting with had, they're experiencing
Grant Liversage 10:22
tough times. Something that the people that I'm coaching have got in common in dealing with tough times is that they are being coached. And what an important element of coaching is what enables this process of reflection that you spoke, you referenced earlier, this thing about reframing. And in order to be able to reframe something, you have to be able to extract yourself from the situation and view it almost like as in the adaptive leadership, there's this tool called moving from the dance floor, onto the balcony. And that's essentially what coaching enables people to do is to extract themselves, get a reflective space around them, where they're not getting overcome by events, but actually being able to view them. So of course, all of the contexts and situations and difficulties that people are experiencing are their own as, as I mentioned earlier, but this ability to utilize a tool to enable that reframing, which is what coaching brings about. Of course, you can do the same thing without coaching, that we're having conversations with yourself or with others that that enable that sort of extraction from the the hustle and bustle of the tough time that's unfolding around you.
Paul Barnett 11:45
And what about this whole idea of having conversations with yourself? I mean, it's a, it's an intriguing idea. And I know a lot of the great coaches talk about helping athletes deal with their internal voice and finding ways to deal with it. And there's all kinds of ideas that I've heard as a self talk diary was, was something that an English cricket coach talked about, and I'm just wondering how you go about helping people find the right questions to be asking themselves?
Grant Liversage 12:15
Yeah, that's, it's such a powerful concept, because essentially, the process of personal improvement, personal development, is founded in good self awareness in I mean, there's this phrase, I know that you use quite a lot is this Where are you, you know, meeting people where they are. And in order to know what you have to do to get somewhere you have to know where you are. And this concept of where you are is a process of self awareness. It's not geography, where are you geographically? It's where is your mind at? How are you coping? What is the the impact of the tough time having on you and this process of increasing self awareness focusing on on what's what's going on? Now has an element of self talk and a conversation with yourself. Typically, what I find with coaching is that a lot of people have not contemplated having a conversation with themselves in the first couple of coaching sessions actually are filling a space with questions and answers that essentially the coach is just facilitating a dialogue with yourself around questions so that people, if you use silence, well, people tend to go to a very self reflective space. And perhaps it feels less weird. If there's a coach on the other side, then getting used to talking to yourself, but very much the conversation that you have with yourself is a big determinant of how prepared you are for the next step, whether you're stuck or whether you're confident. To take that next step.
Paul Barnett 13:51
I had a great example of that, actually, where I was talking to a coach called Damien Hardwick. He coaches the Richmond tigers. And he's, he's quite an amazing chap, because he was failing or was definitely not succeeding as a coach. And he went over to Harvard. And he did a authentic leadership, of course, over there, and he came back and he, he changed the way he coached, there was a book written about it, and he's, he's featured in a documentary, but there's this great example he gives us when players come off the field. And you have this impression that that he's they're giving them instruction on what to do. But he does exactly what you just said. He, he asks them questions to figure out where they are now. He wants them to answer where they are, physically, emotionally, then he'll say to them, what options have you got? And then he Well, actually, why don't I just play the audio quote, so you can hear it for yourself?
Damien Hardwick 14:40
The players have got a better understanding of what the game feels like the new and the coach's box upstairs. So and they generally know the response that is required, but sometimes they just might need a little private about this and this isn't working. What do you think is another action that you might be able to do? Or this one, no, maybe something a little bit more? A B or C Oh, Yeah, what about this? Yep, that's exactly what I'm looking for. What does it look like? Describe it to me? It means I'm doing this, this and this. What will it feel like when you've had that success? Well, I reckon I'll feel a bit more in flow. That's exactly right. Okay, you back on in 30 seconds, let's go. Because it's a one and a half minute conversation, but it's gonna get a better result. And you just yell on the blog down the line, you need to do this better. If they come up with a solution. They're more invested. And they've more importantly, they're thinking about what it looks like in their own head as they're talking to, and they can picture it.
Grant Liversage 15:31
Great. I mean, that's such a, me this whole concept of knowing where you are. And using that as the the foundation for the next step is really so fundamental. And I guess the, one of the things in tough times, or some people would call VUCA, volatile, uncertain, complex and ambiguous is that you don't really know what to do. And a lot of people are so used to especially high performing executives, and perhaps athletes, they used to knowing what to do next and tough times, what to do next is not obvious. And being able to take a step forward when the obvious right step doesn't present itself. But as it does in normal situations takes it takes some doing. I've been
Paul Barnett 16:20
listening a little bit, not listening. But going back over some of the interviews with combat coaches, some of the boxing coaches and karate coaches and kickboxing coaches, and they have to go through this walk to the ring when tension and anxiety is at its highest. And a lot of them, when I asked them what they talk about in the walk to the ring, they also talk about jokes and lightening the mood trying to get these routines where people can smile a little bit. And I, I also, I also interviewed this amazing lady called Beverly Priestman, who coached the Canadian Women's Soccer team to the Olympic gold medal. And Bev has shared this great story of how, in the days leading up to the Gold Medal Match, she purposely tried to just lighten the mood in the team. And I'll play the clip for you now. But she credits this with just getting people into the right frame of mind to then go on to the pitch and, and when that next day. So this tension is something that that is, I think is something that all leaders are experiencing, or at least I'm definitely experiencing at the minute.
Bev Priestman 17:20
So what I did is, is I actually gave the players the day off in the village, I couldn't have done the opposite. I could have done more meetings, more tactics more. And I really a little bit like what I was saying, before lighting the Lord, I had the best day of my whole Olympics, I had a nap. Longest nap I've had in the whole Olympics, I went on a massage chair, I made sure that I felt light, because I knew the energy that would have been taken from us to beat the US took us everything. We needed to get that back. And so I think in the in the final, it almost didn't feel like a final. I know that sounds weird. But it's because we didn't have any fans in the stands. It was a bit eerie. It was a bit. So that pressure actually for me personally, of course, I was like on it. And I wanted to win and all the rest of it. But I knew enough penalties. One we practice the more than any other team, we put a whole lot of work into it. So I felt prepared. And what will be will be
Grant Liversage 18:15
your and I guess maybe Paul, a question to you around leading a business in Eastern Europe, neighboring Ukraine? What are the leadership lessons that you've taken from these podcasts into how you are how you responding to that?
Paul Barnett 18:32
Well, I think the things that I'm using at the minute to try and respond in the best way I can is, you know, it's a mix of sort of focusing on small things initially, that you can succeed at, that can create some kind of momentum and energy. This is amplified by the fact that people are still working remotely. And it's very difficult to build connection and a sense of belonging that I am trying to develop sort of one or two small things that I can can do to move forward. I'm also picking up on one of the things you said earlier, I'm also self reflecting a lot, a little bit more than I normally would. And I've carved out 15 minutes at the end of each day to just reflect on the day, what I did, what I didn't do so well and what I'm going to do better the next day and then and in doing that I'm trying not to get caught up in overthinking because that's that's something that a lot of these great coaches talk about as well. It's sort of like this, this loop of reflect, learn and move on. And again, actually, Sandy rhondella, whose clip I played earlier, she she talked about that loop and she also referenced it with her own science, which I thought added that that extra layer of richness to this sort of reflect learn and move on cycle. It's something I've been been trying to do a little bit more of as well. I think the other thing I'm trying to do grant is just normalize the expectations in Tough times, you know, people are putting a lot of pressure on themselves, the world is changing. And I'm trying to find a balance between expectations or as you and I've talked about a lot, actually high challenge and high care, and making sure that you're, you're challenging in the right areas, but you're also exhibiting the right amount of care for that particular situation. Now, you know, people who are listening to this probably work with me, and, and I'm taking feedback from them regularly. But I'm trying my best. And I think that's where the journaling comes in, there is lots of learning, there is lots of failure. But um, but I'm trying to move on and then make the baseball league the best way I can through this situation.
Grant Liversage 20:40
So one of the things that seems to come through in in these clips is coaches trying to create perspective around what's really important, especially a lot of the time you talk about, in every podcast, you asked the question, what's the legacy you hope to leave? And I haven't heard one of the coaches talk about results of the team, they talk about changing people. I mean, is that a perspective? It? Is that a reference to the perspective of meaning in results versus people and people development?
Paul Barnett 21:19
I think it's such a such an interesting insight into the way they think, isn't it? I mean, these are, these are great leaders who have tested their leadership in championships or Olympics or gold medal events. And the reason I'm so interested in them, or rather, we're interested in them is that they come out on top, and they have lessons to share. But it's so true when it comes to legacy. There's women use a version of creating more opportunities for other women, that that's often repeated. So opportunities for others the legacy they want. And men do a version of, you know, wanting to improve the culture just a little bit, or the lives of people just a little bit, there seems to be to two very big things. But what's even more interesting is, you often ask them why they coach? Well, I mean, why do you put yourself through this. And you know, none of them talk about championships, none of they all talk about wanting to make a difference in the lives of people and sort of creating, or moving people towards their full potential building self belief in people. And it's really, I mean, it's very altruistic, I think they all sort of laugh and say the championships help as well. But I think the championships just add that layer of proof, or that layer of belief that what they what they've tried and tested has worked, or perhaps even hasn't worked. But this idea of, of doing it for something other than the championship is very true. In fact, I'm working on an episode at the minute, you know, we were talking about this before we came on air, and I'm working on one at the minute about goal setting. It's fascinating how many of them go into these Olympics, or championships or World Cups. And they don't talk about winning. They don't even talk about the scoreboard. They talk about improving, playing our best reaching our potential making people proud. But there's many instances where they just refuse to, to reference the the end result they're going after, which is I mean, in a corporate perspective, it's very strange, isn't it? Because we talk about it in terms of market share and growth and financial performance. We don't sort of talk about the daily behaviors. Foremost, before we talk about those results.
Grant Liversage 23:23
Yeah, although I wonder, Paul, I wonder if you if you were to look at a high performing corporate teams, and see what's behind it. And I suspect that a reduced emphasis on business performance metrics, and an increased emphasis on the kind of stuff you've just described? Seems to be what what you would find? I'm not sure. I'm not sure what evidence there is to support that. But yeah, I wonder if that's not the secret to high performing teams in a corporate setting.
Paul Barnett 24:00
So great this challenge are in high performing corporate teams, I find fascinating, because the number one thing that I have learned through doing this podcast is that people in a team want the leader, or the coaches or the leadership team, to care about them beyond their ability to produce a skill or result or a performance they want to be cared for and understood as a holistic individual. And I'm not too proud to admit that that really surprised me. And it was so prevalent all over the world, this whole idea of care as being the number one thing that people in teams look for. And I think the second thing that I have discovered about high performing teams is this whole idea of psychological safety. All the coaches talk about creating a safe environment and initially, so what does the safe environment mean? Because it's got these connotations, you know, of being a place where you've got to watch what you say, you know, you can't voice your opinion and it's actually quite the opposite. They cry environment where people feel so comfortable. They will say whatever they want, and they will also push themselves to uncomfortable places. So I think this whole idea of psychological safety of creating a space where people can say whatever they want with, you know, within reason you can't be rude to people you need to follow guardrails, but within those guardrails, you can say whatever you want. Both of these things have been been absolutely fascinating to me when it comes to the overlap between high performing sporting teams. And I think the high performing corporate environment as well. But grant, maybe Could I ask you a question, and that's has there anything that you've heard, when you've been interacting with the people you've been coaching, that's really surprised you when it comes to how people are dealing with tough times.
Grant Liversage 25:48
So I think the definitely the thing that surprises me the most is how little time people invest in how well they're doing. And I mentioned earlier, this notion of being overcome by events or how the urgent displaces the important. And you know, in tough times, there's this impetus to demand the pumps if you like. And I've been quite surprised at how low the amount of investment that people have had in moving on to the balcony. So I think this notion of being too busy, to, to focus on an aerial view, I think is something that I've found surprising. In fact, I've coached some people who have never been coached before and never had that kind of conversation before. And that surprised me.
Paul Barnett 26:53
You're coaching people that are leading organizations, some of them quite large organizations, should coaching be mandatory.
Grant Liversage 27:01
I think the thing is that coaching it by its very nature is serving the needs of the coachee. And I think it feels to me that leadership is evolving in a way that there's need for reflection, there's need for what you called high care, high challenge. And balancing the two is becoming much more accepted as perhaps a requirement for leadership and good leadership. So I think the the need for leaders to create space to reflect and to work on becoming this better version of themselves as a leader, I definitely think that that is going to increase the role that coaching can play in that process, I think is reasonably clear, there are other tools that people can use, but a more reflective leadership style in the future, I think is going to be a table stake.
Paul Barnett 27:59
It's so interesting, many of the great coaches talk about the mentors in their lives and and they had this ability to collect mentors, you know, they sort of collect them from early in their career and they stay with them as they move along. And even even Eddie Jones talked about his critical friend, a man called Neil Craig because he's a great coach in his own right Niels Niels coached at the elite level in three different sports and, and he and Neil's job is to be this critical friend, you know, this, this sort of asking these, these tough questions, almost like a sparring partner. And I think it's it's a transition that is emerging into the corporate world as well. But as you know, and as many of the coaches tell us to leadership can be lonely. So having that person with you who can care and ask questions of you, to help you improve, I think is a it's an indulgence, I don't know. But it's definitely it's definitely something that can make a big difference to performance.
Grant Liversage 28:55
If you think about the sort of leaders of organizations or teams in the corporate world. It used to be the leadership through knowing the answers. And I mean, of course, that's not really sustainable. I'm not sure if it was ever really true. But increasingly, the questions are way, way more important than then the answers and that takes a lot of getting used to especially because typically, leaders have this strong personality, very little self doubt, conviction and confidence. And, you know, in tough times, you don't know the answers. Care as you as you spoke about is becoming way more important to find your way to success then knowing the answers to all the questions.
Paul Barnett 29:48
I interviewed Sean Dyche, whose was up until recently was the longest serving coach in the Premier League in England and Sean was a success had a successful career and then he coached Burnley for nine and a half years. And he had a he had a good stint at Burnley, he got them back into the European Cup, which they hadn't been in, in over 50 years. But he had this great quote on leadership. And it was an I'll insert the clip here afterwards, but he said something to the effect of leadership is, is knowing what to do, when you don't know what to do. And I thought it was such a straw quote, and such a great idea at the minute when many people are facing once in a generation, supply chain inflation issues that war back in Europe, it's, these are not things that we have a template to follow and to deal with, unfortunately. So
Sean Dyche 30:37
because football can be like that, you know, everyone's staring at you. It's not there. So you don't know what to be thinking, I could do 50 different things here. And I've got 50 different voices and 50 different opinions, probably more nowadays with the media and social media and all that sort of stuff. But eventually, everyone's still staring at you. And they're gone. You know what you gotta do, we have to do something. So it kind of does apply, you know, what, you know, know what to do when you don't know what to do, because there was no not you team staring at yourself and staring at the fans in a you know, in a more distant way. So even when you get flummoxed and you get lost, you got to come out with something that makes a difference.
Grant Liversage 31:14
Poll, I just wanted to I mean, it comes to quite strongly in your podcasts, and something that I've been reading a lot about is this notion of compassion. Maybe we can talk a little bit about this thread of compassion in the podcasts and what your personal take on it is. Well, I
Paul Barnett 31:34
think many, many of the coaches talk about empathy and connected with the whole idea of listening. And I haven't had that episode that I put out just on listening, and how they talk about listening and listening with empathy. And one lady Sue inquest, this iconic American Coach, one of the most fascinating people we've interviewed, she talked about how learning to listen marked her transition from being a transactional to a transformational leader. So there's something there around listening, leading to empathy, but compassion. Well, it's interesting, isn't it, because I sort of think about compassion as acting on your empathy. So here's what I understand, here's what I'm going to act on. And, and I haven't haven't come across this idea of compassion a lot, what, what I hear a lot about is, you know, I will work with you, I will partner with you, I will, will hold you to a standard, but we will set that standard together. And so this movement from empathy to compassion seems to be a joint step, though, that you're doing in tandem with your coach. How are you experiencing this side link between empathy and compassion in your work?
Grant Liversage 32:43
So I think, compassion in coaching, I think, one of the cornerstones of coaching and becoming a better version of yourself is the self awareness that I mentioned earlier. And on top of that, there's this notion of self acceptance, which is, in a way, being compassionate to yourself, so that you're able to view yourself as who you are, where you are, what you are, with compassion. And from that compassion comes a what's known as the chain paradox, which is, your desire to fix yourself sort of recedes a bit because your self acceptance has gone up. And that change paradox is the moment you have an acceptance of where you are, it sort of opens up the path to change. So compassion is very much at the heart of that. And I also think that the relationship between a coach and the coachee that authentic relationship because it is about the development of the coachee it has to have compassion at the at the at the center of it, which is the empathy of where you are, but then the the impetus to, to act to try to get to a different place, which is how I see compassion in the coaching context and compassion in the leadership context. If you think about the lockdown, this was imposed on the world to two and a bit years ago, however long it was that imposition of the lockdown was such a drastic, unprecedented step, that people were bewildered. And certainly the anecdotal evidence that I've had about how people coped with it. The best examples of how people coped with that was when there was compassion in the room, rather than a focus on results. And so I think this notion of compassion as a boat being blocked for performance is certainly something I'm completely convinced about. And I think the sort of more transformative leadership that you spoke about has at its core compassion. So Paul, it's been fantastic to listen to not only the wisdom that you've gleaned from from these great coaches, but also how you've taken it and made it your own your own leadership challenges. So really been fun as always to talk to you about about this kind of thing. Yeah, let's, let's get together and have a chat about another topic around what we can learn from the great coaches in the context of, of leadership.
Paul Barnett 35:41
Thanks, Grant. It's been a great discussion, I've really enjoyed talking about the overlap between leadership through the lens of high performance sport and, and how it intersects with the corporate world. So I've enjoyed it very much, and I look forward to the next discussion.
Jim Woolfrey 35:59
We hope you enjoyed our episode on tough times, and found one or two things that you can bring to your own dinner table, locker room, or boardroom table for discussion. If you'd like the conversation between Paul and grant enjoyed that format of our show, and would like to take part in future discussions. Please drop us an email here at the great coaches podcast. We're always trying to get better. If you have any feedback, or better still, take the time to leave your feedback, your comments and suggestions wherever you get your podcasts. Our show has been heard in over 130 countries around the world. It's the interaction with you who listen, that give us great energy, all the details on how you can connect with us or in the show notes or on our website. The great coaches podcast.com