wenger and mourinho edit

Sat, May 18, 2024 8:20AM • 43:30

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

venga, coach, players, bit, marino, critical incident, barcelona, arsenal, champions league, talk, football, league, win, trophies, marina, club, team, change, play, chelsea

SPEAKERS

David Turner, Paul Barnett

Paul Barnett 00:00

Dr. David Sirota Good evening, my time. Good morning, your time and welcome back to the great coach's podcast.

David Turner 00:06

Thanks very much, Paul. Good to be here.

Paul Barnett 00:08

David, I can see you. Well, I won't spoil it for everybody. Tell us where you are in the world what you've been up to so far today.

David Turner 00:16

So I'm at home on Easter break. That's my FAT COTTAGE behind me. Circa 1660. I've been doing very little this morning. I played running football for the first time in about two years last night. I'm just recuperating gently this morning. Well,

Paul Barnett 00:34

that's probably a good lead. In today's topic. We're here to talk about arson, Venga, and Jose Marino, two coaches that are close to your heart. And, of course, you gave a lecture on them recently. So I quickly asked you to come on board and repeat that lecture for all our listeners. So really keen to hear about these two gentlemen today. And perhaps let's start with the elder of the two. Arguably, the more esteemed of the two. I don't know, we'll see as we go along, but that's arson, venga. And I I'm really keen if you could start us off just talking about his record and why is presence is so revered today in world football.

David Turner 01:22

Yeah, okay. So 54% win record pretty good, but not extraordinary 3013 trophies in 34 years of coaching. And he coached across France, Japan, and England. Most successful years, probably 1998 2005 when he won seven trophies in seven seasons. However, when he took over his coaching job in England, one particular journalist wrote, he's a runner up, not a winner, he finishes second too often. And he was actually a runner up 17 times. For Videx players have the most premier league runners up middles five minutes away. He never retained a league title. So that's an interesting thing is he's had success. But he's never retained Alito, but two doubles. That's the English League and English cup 98 And oh, two. And of course, the invincible season, the only team to go for a Premier League season without being defeated. So some major achievements. It was also undefeated at home in a couple of seasons and undefeated away and another one, he's got the had, at the time, the longest Premier League run without defeat 49 games. He's the longest serving and most successful Arsenal Manager, which makes it makes him very revered a club with a very long history. In his first full season, he won that first double Club, which is quite an extraordinary turnaround. And they were never less than fourth after that, and always qualifying for the Champions League between 1998 and 2016. So quite a sustained period of success. Just to finish off his record, he's got the Legion donor, the highest French order 2002. He's got an honorary OBE from this country, and the International Federation of football history and statistics making world coach of the decade in 2011. And he's been manager a year in all of those three countries that has been coached, coached him last his record in a nutshell, and if you want to stop me and quickly talk about that,

Paul Barnett 03:23

it's an amazing record. It's just listening to talk about but when I read about him, people don't always talk about that he sort of it's his style. It's the manner it's his it's his teaching approach, isn't it that is just revered around the world. Yes.

David Turner 03:43

He's very well respected. I think he's probably more well respected than his record kind of puts across. He embodies certain things about sports, and you've picked up on the fact that he's an educator. Venga is a nickname is the professor. And a lot of people think that's because he used Applied Science in his coaching, which he did, and he was a pioneer in that. But actually, for most of us, it's more the French word professor, which can be professor or can be teacher. And I think venga had more of an educational approach that was impactful, rather than a scientific application approach.

Paul Barnett 04:21

On the players talk so glowingly of him. They, they it's hard to find anyone actually that doesn't speak so well of having played under him.

David Turner 04:33

Yeah, and he's got quote, I can't get it exactly now, but you've got some sort of quote about the impact you have on the spirit of players that matters. Way beyond the technical and the cups. And this person really wants to try and help people thrive through his coach in any sport, any leadership.

Paul Barnett 04:53

Well, before we start going into critical incidents that made him the person he is, let's meet the other coach. We're talking about tonight and that's of course, none other than Jose Marino. So,

David Turner 05:05

Marina then 21 trophies in four countries that he's coached across, including two champions leagues now. Venga tries, he might didn't win a Champions League to get to one final, whereas unfortunate to lose to a Barcelona team. Marino's the only manager with Carlo Ancelotti, who's taken four different teams to the semi final of the Champions League. But none of those have happened since 2013 62%. Win record now. When I first profiled him in 2011, he had a 68% win record. This is an incredible sport. In fact, Marino and 150 game unbeaten home league run over nine years. He was coaching Porto into Chelsea and Madrid during that time, and they've got 150 games without being beaten at home. Now, that tells us something a little bit about Maria and his and his leadership. I think it sparks that primal instinct to defend your own territory. So we know that part of home advantage now has to do with hormonal changes. And when people defend their territory, and the person who has those higher higher hormone changes in football is the goalkeeper because he's got a specific area to defines his home if you like. So Marina is very good at creating a demo and US mentality that we must defend our territory. And that's part of I think he's 150 game unbeaten run, which is remarkable. He was previously the highest paid coach in the world around 2010. The International Federation for football history and statistics made him the world's best club coach in four different years. That's the record. He was also the FIFA World Coach of the Year 2010. And finally, he's the if f HS world's best coach of the 21st century, although I think that might be a bit premature.

Paul Barnett 06:59

And he's a little bit more polarizing than us and Venga.

David Turner 07:04

Yeah, absolutely. And as I've, as I've alluded to, he's more impactful days perhaps up behind him. He won more trophies towards the at the start of his career than he has towards the end. And I think he's always been a bit edgy. He's never stayed very long at places. Things get a bit toxic, but they seem to get a bit toxic a bit quicker these days. And people are are a little more keeping him at arm's length in terms of the negativity sometimes brings to projects or perhaps the perceived negativity. Where

Paul Barnett 07:36

does that negativity derive from? I don't know him as well, I, I know that very famous quote, which refers to himself as the special one. But where is this negativity? Where does it come from? I

David Turner 07:50

think he tries to create a negative tension with his psychology. And I think he uses that in a number of ways. He's masterful at manipulating the media. And it's a way therefore if I'm taking pressure off players, the spotlight falls on him. I think he was particularly good at that in the first half of his career. But he uses that negative pressure to manipulate and he deliberately manipulates. So if I give you an example, he's with Porter, the Portuguese team he coached I think they won the domestic double in the UEFA Cup in his first full season. And he was worried that the players would go a little bit off the rails on that success. So what he did was he instigated a tactical game plan that was more demanding for the players to play. And therefore it kept them humble, kept them busy, kept them up, kept them on their toes. So for me, that's an example of his positive manipulation. But then later in his career, it becomes a little bit of a negative manipulation as well. So when he's at Real Madrid, in his third year, it's very divisive. He's treating the players who are representative by his own agent better than the other players. There's a lot of micro politics. And eventually, he's pleased to leave and they're pleased to see him leave. So there's this element of manipulation. And that goes right back to his upbringing. He went to university to train in a sports science and Physical Education course, when in fact, his mom enrolled him on a business course first of all, but he lost him one day, and then he went and joined the other course. But he was a voracious students. And they said, particularly went to one lecture where they talked about how you can affect people with use of emotions. And then the phrase they used was, he was like a cat watching birds. So he's sitting forward in his chair thinking, I can use this. So I think that's partly where it comes from.

Paul Barnett 09:51

And you mentioned that I'm reading about Pat Summitt at the minute and I've actually got a quote right in front of me where she says in her book, all coaches are emotion should not manipulators at heart, and I was the very best of them. So David, let's explore the background of both of these gentlemen and how that's gone on to shape the journey that they then went on and perhaps if we could start with venga and then move on to Marine, yeah. So,

David Turner 10:19

okay, so then was born in a prosperous rural area. It's a village that's dominated by religion, and that's reflected later by Marino's strong moral code, particularly where he honors commitments to clubs, has often been offered other coaching positions but not taking them. That village was also characterized by hard physical work for being a good farm worker as a child. That's reflected in the fact that he worked very hard as a coach later on. And he says that he trains as if he will play on a match day, even though he's clearly not going to experience run a pub and a car spare parts business. He became very self reliant and reserved because he was left alone most of the time. And later on, he forged bonds with more mature older mentors to fill the gap left by his hard working father. His village was so small, he didn't really play team football until he was about 12. We couldn't get enough people together. One of his mentors said, If you come to the skills this late, you can't reach the top. However, marine yes did suggest sorry, venga did suggest that growing up in a pub was more useful as a coach and having playing experience. This is a great quote from him. He says there's no better psychological education than growing up in a pub. You meet different people and hear how cool they can be even learned about tactics and team selection from talking the pub. So this was the local team that would meet in the pub, and venga attributes this to the start of his passion for football. Now, venga is life is characterized by his passion for football. Football became his his only religion and his obsession. When he dedicated his life to one he sacrificed his life to in some ways. He loved it very much, but he also suffered a lot. And you hear him talking about suffering. It's a really important point that venga recognizes where you come from shapes you. And that was really important later on when he was dealing with diverse players from all over the globe. And this guy is about the globalization of football. He's He's the person who started that, that greatly diverse teams that we can talk about later. Thank you fielded for the first time delivering plasma 11 Different nations in a football team. Quickly is education, academic background, he had a degree in engineering and a master's in economics, because he was lined up to run that family business. He briefly flirted with a study of politics and medicine. He says if he wasn't in touch, he would probably be a politician. And because he came to football, so late, emerged too late to forge a professional career. He lacked pace anyway. And they weren't sure where his what his best position was. But he read the game, well, then intelligence just lacked technique to put it into place. So nine years an amateur and a semi pro, not the best player, but an influence on others and an authority. Actually, there's a good story about a journalist system, what you like as a player when you were young, and he says I was the best. Well in my village anyway. So he makes his pro debut at 28, which is really light for Strasbourg. He makes 12 appearances in three years. He did live when the top league but he only had three appearances. And he played very badly in one losing European football game. But here's what one of these mentors said. And this is key to Venga. I think he didn't come to be a professional who came to train the youth team with Max healed. We got him because he was in pedagogy, a teacher. So his first full time job was guiding and organizing those youngsters with an occasional first team selection. When he was a stress ball player, he came to England during the close season. This is in about 1978. He said when you're a pro football that you spend your holidays at Club Med, me I bought an air ticket to London, a friend advised me at Cambridge where a hide a bike and enrolled in a three week English course. My teammates thought I was mad. But that's really setting him up for things that happen later in his career. Yeah, and that's probably the some of his background for now.

Paul Barnett 14:21

The quote, I have from him, David that I've always liked is he says, when you represent a club, it's about values and qualities, not about passports was something that he was very big on was the the your identity. When you step into that club is just so important. I don't know whether he was one of the first people to bring that but I know that he was one of the first to popularize that idea.

David Turner 14:47

And I think he's he's very much an internationalist. He seems like a citizen of everywhere, not somebody who's French, and we might want to go into that anyway, but the region is He's born in Alsace Chang from France to Germany several times, but different wars and territorial disputes. And venga is a multilingual person who comes from an area that has cultural influences from different countries. And that makes him the internationalist and globalizes football.

Paul Barnett 15:17

Yeah, I got very close actually, to interviewing, I got through to his, his team and I submitted the questions but unfortunately, we never got it over the line. But he he reminds me a little bit of like, he's got this similar thing that Roy Hodgson's got me Roy Hodgson speaks seven different languages. And I know that the Dawson has similar a similar level level of linguistic skills, and it's it's really quite fascinating that they can connect as a result with just such a wide array of people.

David Turner 15:53

Yeah, and I think we need to draw some parallels between the two coaches we've got today, venga is a linguist sorry, Marina is a linguist similarly, and it allows them to connect with a broader range of people. Venga also talks about understanding where people come from. And that was very important when he was recruiting from new areas such as, you know, African talent, obviously, his connection with George wire, who was a World Player of the Year, wire is now I think the President of his country, and invites banker over. So, you know, this linguistic ability is really important in connecting with people, but I think it gives you flexibility and adaptability as well. And of course, when you're someone who liked the radio and travels, different countries to coach, it tests your flexibility and adaptability and it gives you different cultural influences. They've both got that in common.

Paul Barnett 16:47

David tell us about Marino's journey, and what's interested in his background. Okay,

David Turner 16:52

so born 1963 middle class background, family was very much in favor with the Portuguese fascist regime that was in power at that time. So kind of a privileged position if you like. His father was a professional footballer and then a coach did have one cat for Portugal as well. I think he was a goalkeeper. His mother was a teacher. So if you remember when we talked to Sergio Laura parcial and Cliff mallet about Syria, winning coaches, they talked about the helping gene, the fact that it's very common, that there's a teacher or or a coach in the background, Marino's got both. He's a very early student of the game. So he observed training when his father was coaching scouted opponents for his father as a child, he prepared pre match reports as a child. So if we talk a little bit about theory for a second Bandura social learning theory, much of what we learn is through modeling in a social setting. So you see in the coaching, going on experience in the match reports etc. So this this inculturation whereby football becomes a big part of Marino's life. Course he tries to play is briefly a pro at real RV, but he lacks talent and pace. He's got that in common with venga as well. He's a mediocre defender come defensive midfielder. He doesn't win a first team place. His career peaks in the reserves of a club that's never won a trophy. And he's coached by his dad so realizes by 23 that his playing career is not viable. And he turns his mind to coaching. Talked a little bit about his university study. After his university studies, he gains experience teaching in the mornings and coaching in the afternoons. He taught for seven years in primary and secondary schools, or sorry three years, or primary and secondary schools, including working with children with disabilities. And he has referred back to that as a humbling experience that he uses when he's working in pro football with sports stars. He was a youth coach and fitness trainer of various clubs in the early 1990s. Then he's assistant coach at one club and scout another and then a pivotal moment that happens when he's appointed as Bobby Robson as translator at Sporting Lisbon. Robson required a local coach with good English Ross and takes him with him when he goes to Porto. And then he takes him with him again when he goes to Barcelona as coach. And in fact, Marino ends up being an assistant coach, when Bobby Robson gets to Barcelona. There's no goalkeeping coach, and Jose goes, well, I could do that my dad was a goalkeeper. So you get this kind of serendipity, this happy moment after the accident. state of Barcelona when Robson moved on to assist Louie van Howell for four years. In 2000, Marino became head coach at Benfica, but was only there for nine games. They then changed to I don't know if I'll get this right Uniao Delaire let them to fifth place. January 2002. He joins Porto and that's where everything takes off for him. Usually successful debate Stick League and in Europe with them he wins the Champions League with a think they're still only Portuguese teams and one Champions League in the modern era. I think it win trophies every club from then on, except for the curse of spurs. He's an outstanding coach. You change the players and reorganized the team at Porto didn't have had very little money to do that. But that included scouting in Brazil as well. Took Chelsea from a good team to a great team. He raced into Atlanta historic first and only Italian travel. So that's Rob bubbly. Oh, no, actually, let's talk a little bit about about serendipity I've alluded to is sometimes regarded as arrogant. Some people think that's confidence, but maybe maybe it can be both. But he certainly developed the passion for coaching. He said, Oh, enjoy the work. I enjoy every minute of my professional life. He made his own luck, very any step by step journey during his development. So he skillfully edited video highlights of opponent strengths and weaknesses at Barcelona, and that helped win over the players. Because, remember, he's dealing with some of the best players in the world at Barcelona, but he's got no plan background. He deliberately cultivated a close relationship with Pep Guardiola, an influential player with strong opinions and even learned Katelyn to communicate better with Guardiola. He intentionally sought out that translator role that potential mentor I don't buy that it's an accident that he becomes Robson's translator. I think he's put himself in the way of that. So there's many quotes on luck. Well, I'll do a couple. Thomas Jefferson. I'm a great believer in luck and I find the harder I work the more I have. Gary Player, the golfer, the more I practice, the luckier I'm going to get. So I'll do the Pat Riley one because it sums up Marino's journey, step by step journey. Pat Riley basketball coach said luck is where preparation and organization meet opportunity. I think he's actually drawing upon a stoic quote there. But I think it's a really good way of wrapping up thinking about Marino's background, which is a deliberate step by step journey, where he's creating serendipity, that happy accident in terms of his development. And we said it took me 15 years to become an overnight success.

Paul Barnett 22:23

So David, I know when you were giving the lecture on these two gentlemen, you looked at critical incidents that had gone on to shape that, can you can you tell us about what you discovered? Yeah,

David Turner 22:35

I'll sketch over this a bit because obviously I went in detail with a two hour learning from legendary coaches talk but I think a critical incident that stands out for me with venga is when he's appointed arsenal. He comes from Japan, which is a bit of a footballing backwater at the time, although he was successful there. So he's a relatively unknown, and at the time, he's a very rare foreign coach. And he arrives at mid table last night in October 1966. That's 9019 96 and the newspapers have a huge banner over them which goes arson who and because nobody knows who this guy is. So why is this a critical incident because we didn't really have we had the internet then but nobody was using it youngsters for listening. So we didn't really know a lot about foreign foreign coaches, particularly coming from Japan. And at that time, it's remarkable to look back because it's fairly recently but there weren't any established successful for football coaches in England. Three people had had a go at it. Dr. Joseph jazzy thing loss, a bit of Aston Villa in the early 1990s, but didn't succeed at all. Osvaldo our dealers went back as a coach, rather than a player to spurs but again, lasted about a year. Ruud Hollett had been appointed in 1996 at Chelsea did quite well, and in fact, is the only first foreign manager to win a trophy won the FA Cup 1997 but seems to have fallen out with people was gone by 98. So venga ends up being an absolute Trailblazer. Because he established that football, football coaches could be successful in the long term when I say foreign, I mean, not Irish and English or Scottish. But when it got to Arsenal, he had several really considerable challenges when he initially took up the role. And that's what's top story, the critical incidents around so we go for that briefly. The first hurdle he's got to get over his credibility and trust. So we said he's, he's a bit of an unknown. The other people that were in the running for that job were young and Khrushchev, who was more of a known and Terry Venables, so they've both been linked to that job. Venga, inherited really big characters, and established professionals. We had to win over. So when the chairman of Arsenal went to the training ground to announce who the new manager was, right part of exclaimed Who the eff is that? They didn't have a clue to play as he was coming. If for venga it arrived, but although it was officially in charge, I asked him about a European Cup de venga was there. Pat Rice was in charge. Venket couldn't help himself but go in the changing room. Make some changes to the defense, you substitute the captain Tony Adams and asked to wind up losing the second half. And the captain thinks to himself, what does this Frenchman know about football? So he's got this difficult start. Venga also is not what you would normally characterize as an English coach at the time he softly spoken is like a school teacher. It contrasts with most English managers. There was a lot of smears and slander in the newspapers because he was so different. People kind of thought he must be a bit weird a bit strange. But it soon became clear to people that he was admired internationally. He'd already been offered the French National Team job previously. He'd been asked to be Fia, technical director by Glenn Hoddle, who played under him previously at Monaco. You had a clear vision for Arsenal, and he was authentic, and he had a knack for signing European talent. Arsenal won their first game under venga to kneel. Ian Wright scored both goals in Blackburn I think it was venga said that first victory was crucial. It allowed me to establish my vision from the outset, and to reinforce my legitimacy as a coach. So that's the credibility and trust piece. He's also got an aging squad. He was very fortunate to inherit an excellent English defense, but they were all over 30 Except for a few players who played in midfield and attack. Venga believed that of professional footballs has finished after 30. And in his later years, he wouldn't sign anyone, unless unless they were younger than 30. There were over 30 They got short term contract only. But they were so good. He had to change his ideas about that. Because he brought in fitness regimes diet changes, he extended their careers. And that was really revolutionary. But we also need to talk about behavioral those players because one chapter that writes about this era describes the players he inherited as boozers, brawlers drug addicts, gamblers, and outlaws. So he's got to change the culture as well. And that was quite difficult, perhaps a a small version of that. I think it was the Blackburn game, they're driving home and he's changed the diet. And the players were hungry, you know, because he changed it. And they started chanting, we want our mass balls back in the back of the couch. And the interviewer says, Did you give them the mass balls back? And no, I didn't. There's this. There's this tension there with with what they're doing. I think it was Ian Wright who said, Yeah, we keep having to eat broccoli, yuck. So he's really changing things. So improve the fiscal preparation, he recruited really well. The players he brought in were absolutely amazing. I'll just give an example of the error in midfield, and pity, you know, people, again, talents we didn't know in this country. There was he tapped into some French talent that we didn't have the network for. Really big on recovery. And he established an attractive attacking playing style at a time when Arsenal were known as boring, boring arsenal, got one bill up and hold on to it. So the whole thing I talked about this critical incident was what I call vendors revolution. So let's quickly summarize that revolution is the first country shows that foreign code can be successful. He changes and professionalize the way they prepare and the diet etc. And he has an attractive attacking style that can win. So there are three major things that change.

Paul Barnett 29:07

And how does the journey of Mr. Marino compare?

David Turner 29:12

Yeah, while again, I've selected a critical incident within his journey. I've selected Marino's time at Inter Milan, so it's time at first time in Italy. This is around 2008 So first thing to say is that he's really hot property. Despite falling out with Roman Abramovich at Chelsea and key players there, he was still got property. It had 10 major trophies in five, four seasons coached. Of course, two countries. Never had he had a trophy, this campaign in those five seasons, and in only one season. Had he won a single trophy. Most of them had won multiple trophies. So he's a young successful serial and multiple winner. So he's appointed for 2008 2009 into an odd run three consecutive scudetto as the top Italian league. Marina was brought in to address their European who do so despite winning three UI for cups in the 1990s into at the time were on a 45 year barren spell for the European Cup stroke Champions League. They want it back to back in 64 and 65, under legendary coach, Alenia Herrera, and they'd lost a couple of finals after that, but basically 45 years without lifting that trophy. So that was his mission. He inherited a strong experienced by aging squad a little bit like venga asked him a lot of people who were in their 30s, although quite a bit of talent. So what happens is, in his first season at enter, it's only his second single trophy last season, they win the league again, but they're defeated in the second round of the Champions League, White Man United. Marina and the president realize that they've got to have a rebuild. And unusually for Maria, who's micropolitics sometimes go wrong. He's got an excellent relationship with the owners and the president. He's backed in the transform transfer market, and it brings the changes. So the second season, Slaton Ibrahimovic moves to Barcelona, ironically because he thinks he's got more chance of winning the Champions League semi Leto comes the other way. He brings in some key players such as Thiago Motta and Wesley Snyder. He brings in a veteran defender. It's still a very old team, but he's got six new players to be integrated. That's a lot of players to integrate. And once again, seven of his outfield players are still over 30 He's fought the first choice center backs and goalkeeper have a combined age of 94 Zanetti, Materazzi, or both Beaufort six, this is their last chance of glory in terms of the European crusade. So what Maria does is he sets up very strong founder, defensive foundations, his team are pragmatic, hardworking, they're not about flair. They're not about attacking as Maria's fingers things off. In fact, Marina says at one point for me flare is a team at defense fantastically well. What they were really good at was soaking up pressure, and then having a rapid transition from defense to attack. They played almost extensive exclusively on the counter. So they won their fifth consecutive league title 100. They scored the most goals and conceded the least goals in those two years when he won the league with him. And then we have to talk about the Champions League. So they scraped through the Champions League group stage, but Marina learned a lot from playing to opponents that he played in later knockout rounds. So he gets a lot of information about how to play against CS K, Moscow later and Barcelona later. He also met Ancelotti, Chelsea in this drive through Champions League Guadiana is Barcelona and Van holes, Bayern so Interland beat the English, Spanish and German league champions on their way to the league title this season. could go into a lot of detail but the semi final against Barcelona is really dramatic. There's that volcano which might remember that caused the planes to not be able to fly to Barcelona have to drive 14 hours to Milan and two nights in hotels. Even though Inter Milan were at home in that first semi final, they conceded possession over 30% possessions Barcelona 70% They invited Barcelona to press onto them and hit them on the transition and one free one. Before the second leg This is Maria manipulating right that we talked earlier. Marina stated that a lot of Champions League final was a dream for internal air. For Barcelona. It was an obsession and he spat that word out for them to win it in the Berber in the second leg. Intimate instead of the semi final intimate Lana replies sent off in 30 minutes have even less possession. They have 24% possession to Barcelona 76 But Barcelona can't score. They score with six minutes left and they need one more goal go through their disallowed goal. In the whole game Barcelona had 16 shots and Inter Milan had none. But this was one of the greatest defensive displays ever. Marino described it as the greatest moment in his career. At the end of the game when they lose one nil but go through the Sprint's onto the pitch with and celebrate with the crowd. The boss a goalkeeper tries to get him off the pitch but he can't do it. They turn the sprinklers on in the end trying to get him off the pitch. But he's really celebrating but the interesting thing with him is it will never get to these heights again into one five out of six trophies in this season. And after that Marina would only win two trophies in a season twice more. Once we Chelsea was with men United but At that moment in 2010, he's the greatest coach on the planet, and Inter Milan remain the only Italian team to win a continental treble. So that's the critical incident for me of Marino Zenith. And what he does there, he has a wonderful complicity with the players. The players say they would die for him on the pitch is that amazing moment where he's driving away from the game, the second game, sorry, the the Champions League final game, and he stopped gets the driver to stop the car and goes back and hugs Materazzi. And there's the picture of them sobbing together against the wall matter as he puts his head up as if to say this is a bit embarrassing. Ammonia pulls it down again, for an avocado has this amazing complicity that they have at that point. So it's an interesting Senate. It's an amazing achievement. It sums up marine yo perhaps at his best in terms of his defensive transition tactics.

Paul Barnett 35:53

So David, after pulling together, all this, this information, and all these these stories and watching all this footage, what's the big learning for you? What do you take away? From these two gentlemen?

David Turner 36:07

Yeah, well, I was unusually, I had a little focus on career, I was kind of trying to think about career, a little bit of things, and how their careers have developed. And when I look at their careers overall, they've got a similarity in that both of them are not famous X players, they've had to work their way up. They've done that, what I call their time in the trenches. So they're well prepared. When opportunities come. If we look at venues, achievements arsenal, if you imagine a plot of Arsenal's history from when they started, it's like an up and down monitor kind of site, but then when you get to venga kind of flatlines at the top, it goes down slightly in the second half, but it is really noticeable that he's got a period of sustained success. He's got that because he's learned a lot on the way up about recruitment, that preparation and players that we've got to go back and remember that he studied economics as well. This guy what what is sustainability in terms of the business? So he turned asked me to financial superpower, and that's because of his background, the economics background. Now, I said there's a set there's a flatline but it goes down slightly in the second half and the reason it goes down slightly. He's he knows that he's got to get asked them out of Highbury into the emirates to make them a bona fide viable financial superpower in football. And he does that. They transition about halfway through his time at Arsenal, and that's when they go down slightly, not not very much down but roundabout forth. And when a club in English football changes grounds, they typically spiral down the league, and they sometimes go into other league. So men's tear in the third tier, that one point off, they've gone from minor, but venga keeps them up there. Now there was the dissatisfaction of everyone that they weren't winning things. They were just under, but he did a remarkable job of converting that club. So when I think about Venga, I've said he worked his way up from humble beginnings as as as not a famous X player. He was successively more successful in terms of wind percentages. I think it was very successful for Arsenal. I think what we do need to recognize with him is that after his revolutionary start, which we talked about the world caught up with him caught up with him in terms of recruitment, foreign managers, foreign players fitness diet. So, you know, if you're going to be a revolutionary, you have to keep changing. The worst thing that can happen to you as a coach is if you kind of get fossilized in a way of being he never had a strong number to challenge him. And because of that he became a little bit stubborn and set in his ways, set in his ways playing youth not having many English players, balancing the books. So I think he needed someone to challenge him a bit more once he's economic model of consistently qualifying for the Champions League, and thus being able to purchase young talent that will get the chance to play in that competition was gone when they came fifth or six didn't qualify for the Champions League. It was just a matter of time before we left so gotta keep gotta keep changing. Gotta keep adapting is what I learned from Venga. And then if we talk about Maria Marino's wonderful talk about venga venga Vegas career trajectory takes him up, and then it starts to flatline a bit. Marino's career trajectory goes up to that mountain we just talked about 2010 But he's then coming down on the other side of the mountain it looks like so I think we can divide his career into pre Real Madrid and post Real Madrid. Three Real Madrid. He wins six leagues in three countries. Nice five domestic cups, three European trophies in about nine seasons, that's 14 major trophies, post Real Madrid. He wins one league, two domestic cups, two European trophies just slightly lower Europa League, Europa champion conference League, in again about nine seasons. So five, slightly less major trophies, 14 versus five. And he works his way up in that step by step journey that we talked about the start again, not as a famous X player. He has a rapid rising with percentages from Porter when would break records and truly remarkable spills at Port on Chelsea and into and he seems unstoppable. But the end of that critical incident we talked about, but at Real Madrid is the least he wins at any club to that point, you know, he was one cut and one league in three years. And then there's a rapid and consistent decline in the percentage thereafter, it's worse to win percentages, and his last two projects, runner and Tottenham, and who would have thought in 2010, after that continent and treble, it only went to more league titles, and only have two more years where he won two trophies. We could go into what happened at Real Madrid, but I'll try and summarize it a bit quicker on that. I think he overreached himself at Real Madrid.

And I think some of it might be to do with something that I've looked into called hubris syndrome. Up syndrome is when we've had unbridled power and success for about a decade. And we start believing in our own myth. And I think he started believing in His own myth, I think he got carried away with himself carried away with his own importance. He was very good at wearing a mask, he's talking about being someone with two faces, the face better media, with baseball players, etc. But I think sometimes if you wear a mask, it burns into your face, and you begin to end up being a caricature of yourself. And Marina now seems to be even a breath of fresh air when he first came in, or was a bit edgy, but a breath of fresh air, he now seems to be a bit stuck in the same ways, a little bit too toxic. A turning point was when he had a go at the physio to female physio at Chelsea. And I think everybody thought at that point, hang on, it could turn around and have a go at anyone at any point, it might be a bit kind of dangerous in that regard, I still think he's got a lot about him. He's definitely a serial winner. But he almost needs to reinvent himself and make the most of what he's got. But that's very difficult when you've been using that negative tension that we talked about for so many years. And with hubris syndrome, it happens often when you lose trusted advisors. And he used to have a group of Portuguese coaches who followed him around to these different projects. But some of them have gone off on their own way. Now, you just wonder if he's got that balancing factor that he needs to say to him, you know, he tried this.[PB1]

Paul Barnett 43:03

David, it's always fascinating listening to you, you tell a really good story and the depth of your research is always fantastic. Thank you for coming on and sharing that with us. I really like this idea of this sort of negative tension. And we might explore that as we have conversations in the future. But thank you very much for your time today and I look forward to getting you on again soon.

43:27

Yeah, welcome. Good.