wise words edit
Mon, Jul 29, 2024 6:23AM • 20:51
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
coaches, suppose, players, book, owen, alex ferguson, ireland, popovich, communication, tim duncan, irish, success, athletes, environment, sir alex ferguson, hurling, great, preparation, valued, listening
SPEAKERS
Jonathan Cole, Eoin, Paul Barnett
Paul Barnett 00:04
Hello and Jordan, good evening, and welcome to the great coaches podcast.
Eoin 00:11
Thanks William, thanks for having me.
Paul Barnett 00:13
Well, we're looking forward to talking to you about your new book wise words, but before we get into that, could you tell us where you are in the world and what you've been up to so far today.
Eoin 00:25
Yeah. So it's just 11am in Ireland at the moment, so not a whole lot. I'm a high school teacher, so I'm off for the summer as well, which is great. I'm based in the county of Westmead, which is pretty much in the center of Ireland.
Paul Barnett 00:41
Well, you've written this great book called wise words. It's a fantastic read. I'm going to put the link in the show notes. I think many people listening will get a lot out of it. It's a collection of your thoughts, your insights about great coaches and athletes and teams. There's so so much in it for for everybody. It works on so many levels, but you do talk about great coaches a little bit in the book, and I thought we could start there. And I'm I'm wondering, Owen, in putting the book together, what traits, if any, did you find that unite people like Sir Alex Ferguson or Phil Jackson?
Eoin 01:21
Yeah, I think going through their autobiographies and documentaries and stuff, the traits that kind of shine through for me were, you know, things like their dedication and their commitment and their I suppose they always were hungry to learn more and to get better, and they're never satisfied and and also the ability to to get the best out of world class players under management like Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant and Cristiano Ronaldo, or and also, and just, I suppose, there's a rootless element to them as well, like Alex Ferguson was famous for getting rid of so many older players, and I'm bringing through the likes of David Beckham and and Gary Neville and and also their ability to manage what might be perceived as difficult players like Dennis Rodman and Eric Canton, and still being able to get the best out of them. So I think those traits kind of shone through when I was doing some research on them.
Paul Barnett 02:21
Well, Owen, I think I'm going to hand over to my friend and co host tonight, Jonathan, who I know has got some other questions for you when it comes into that research that you did to pull all this book together. Jonathan,
Jonathan Cole 02:34
thank you. Thank you. Owen, it's been, actually, it's fantastic just reading the book, you know, I'm a sports nut, and just getting all these the pieces of information was was good, but just building on on the question that that Paul was talking about, you know, with all the research and you're looking at the top coaches, are there certain that things that are just non negotiable for for most of the coaches, whether it's, you know, their values, their belonging, what Are the things like that that really stand out?
Eoin 03:03
I think commitment is, is definitely the key one that like kind of achievement and success are byproducts of being committed to to your craft, as a as an athlete or as a as a player or a team, and I suppose to be coachable as well. You know, whether you're Tom Brady, or, you know, Michael Jordan, or whatever, that you have to be open to improvement as well. And it's about being dependable and being consistent and understanding what you need to do to improve. And I suppose, like sail, Jackson was famous for his kind of way before to me culture and to try and create that within a team environment. [PB1]
And also having the ambition to and the vision to succeed and to progress and to, I suppose, get the best out themselves and and also, again, going back to Belichick was like massive on the fundamentals and that, like the ability to perform well under pressure, kind of all comes back to your ability to perform the fundamental skills of whichever game they're playing.
Jonathan Cole 04:11
When you talk about Sir Alex Ferguson, I mean, he had so much success over a period of time. You know, obviously you talk about the commitment to the craft, but were the things that you if you look back at the writings from 40 years ago versus 10 years ago, did you see a noticeable change in in how he was managing and delivering because he had to keep fresh, didn't he so over such a long period of time?
Eoin 04:36
Yeah, I think so. He's a he's a really good book called leading, and within that, there's a chapter on listening and watching, and I think that's a skill that he developed towards the end of his managerial career that was probably different from him at the beginning, where he felt that like you've got really powerful tools in your ears and your eyes. And to be able to listen to the people around you and to to watch the people around you. And he referenced like listening to players who would play it against Eric Anthony and Christiana and Aldo were the reasons why he signed those players who would I suppose go on to be so successful at Man United. And also then listening to previous managers like Bill Shankly and and jock Stein and Alfredo de Stefano was where he he picked up a lot as well. And to keep that freshness, I think he was very good at maybe changing his assistant coaches like Carlos queer, also Mike feel and Brian Kidd and and that probably gave him the freshness to keep coming up with new ideas and being open to new ideas, with with with different coaches.
Jonathan Cole 05:48
Do you see some of that consistency with all the other kind of coaches? Or that's that is something you see more with people who've had success over a long period of time?
Eoin 05:58
Yeah, like, I think the difference maybe with Ferguson, I suppose, and maybe, like, if you look local college coaches, maybe like Mike chishevsky, or someone who had long term success, they're getting a freshness of players every, maybe every two, three years in the college environment. Whereas with Alex Ferguson, there could be players there like Ryan Giggs on schools there for 1015, years, and supposed to keep that freshness is really important and and that's something that I think a lot of managers would take from the likes of an Alex Ferguson, oh,
Paul Barnett 06:33
and you're a high school teacher, so you're dealing with youth, young people all the time, and yet you've created this great book where you've studied the, I guess, the emotional control of some some wonderful leaders, and I'm wondering what it's helped you learn about the way the the great coaches that you've, you've you've looked at how they handle anxiety and pressure.
Eoin 06:57
Yeah. So I suppose what I learned is that it never goes away and there was, I heard Irish hurler recently called Michael friendly talk about being nervous for, like, preseason friendlies with with nobody watching. So it's always going to be there, but it's how to harness that energy that it doesn't become negative to impact on performance, and that if you can, I suppose, the likes of Bill Walsh would say about control, and you know what you can in the lead up to the performance, and if you get those things correct, that the performance should follow. And Paul McGinley, the Irish writer club captain, said the difference between healthy nervousness and anxiety is preparation. So to have all those boxes ticked, I suppose, in the lead up to performance, excited to have those nerves, which are natural, but that if you have everything done beforehand in terms of preparation, the performance will take care of itself.
Jonathan Cole 07:59
You know, one of the one of the quotes you put in the in the book from Bill berchick In is saying, it's not all about talent, talent, it's about dependability, consistency, being coachable, and understanding what you need to improve. Did you see what people had to do to be more dependable and consistent? Because I think it comes back to your point, just there, about preparation helps anxiety. So, you know what? What kind of things do people do that that gets the best out of his their teams?
Eoin 08:29
Yeah, I like, I think Tom Brady is a good example. So, like, I suppose it's a well known story, but what he went on to achieve in his career was he was so driven to improve. And there's a story from a guy called Scott Pioli, who was the director of player personnel with the Patriots, where before Brady had kind of made the breakthrough in his in his first season, and in the in the off season, he was in the Patriots practice facility at nine o'clock on a Friday evening. And peoli kind of went to turn off the lights, and he saw he was in there practicing. And he kind of saw Brady as a young, 2122 year old. He could be out socializing in Boston on a Friday night, but he was, he was so dedicated to improving his craft. I suppose eventually he did make the breakthrough when he got his opportunity. I suppose it is up to individual players or athletes to seek feedback from their coaches, to look at video, to nail down their SNC and nutrition and on everything that's within their control and purposeful practice, and if you can do all those things, then that dependability and that consistency should follow.
Paul Barnett 09:52
There's a great chapter in the book Owen on communication, which you emphasize with a quote from Pete Carroll the. American football coach, and the quote is, flexible and open, communication is an incredibly powerful leadership tool. I wondered, Where do you think leaders get it wrong when it comes to this kind of communication?
Eoin 10:16
I suppose when they're close to communication or feedback on where they can maybe turn that around, as if they show vulnerability and that they're open to communication. The role of a coach is to facilitate player development and enhance their performance, so I think it's important to be open to listening and to hear what he is, as we talked about with Alex Ferguson, rather than maybe just listening to reply like there's an Irish hurling course called Paul canerke who takes a lot from his players and tries to create that autonomous environment that The players can kind of take control where, like, the best coaches, are kind of open to that communication from their athletes. [PB2]
And so I suppose if you're, if you're the opposite, and you're, you're close to that communication and that feedback, then that's where maybe players can get frustrated and feel they're not being valued within the within the environment. You
Jonathan Cole 11:22
know, when you when you talk about successful coaches, a lot of people are successful in one club, but they don't really transfer. When they go to another club, they don't seem to get the same kind of success. But you look at someone like Carlo angeloti, I mean, he's won five champions leagues. He's won all the top five major leagues in Europe. Have you got any insights into how on earth he transfers that knowledge so quickly? Because it's not like he he's in those places for years and years. He gets in there and gets results quite quickly,
Eoin 11:55
I think, like he just seems like a really cool guy, like a stereotypical Italian man and his lovely suits and everything, and you see him smoking cigars with the players in the victory parades and stuff. Again, he is a brilliant book called Quiet leadership, and a lot of it is about really good communication, following on from a previous question and to maintain a positive relationship with all his players. And the, I think the bottom line for him is that there's no superstars. It's based on respect and trust and loyalty and and he he calls like, I suppose, the maybe less talented players, like the water carriers, and that without the water carriers, there are no superstars. So I think he also emphasizes about clear communication, particularly around difficult decisions. And I think when you have all those attributes as a base level, then if he respects the players and they respect him, he clearly has the, I suppose, managerial skills and the CV to go with all the success he's achieved. It's
Jonathan Cole 13:12
just interesting how that communication keeps coming up and the open to ideas. And, you know, watching Angelo on the sideline when everyone's beginning to panic and get worried about what's going on. He's just this calm, unflappable person, and that must come across to the players to to see the coaches. Okay, so it should be okay for us as well.
Eoin 13:33
Yeah, I'd imagine that that calm demeanor on the sideline transpires to the players on the pitch, where they can remain calm in the crazy environment of a Champions League final or something like that, and maintain their composure.
Paul Barnett 13:47
I think calmness is a underrated skill when it comes to leadership, but I know that there's also a lot of hot headed coaches out there too, but let's talk about one that fascinates me a lot, and that's Greg Popovich, and he he's fascinating because he doesn't do a lot of media. You mostly only hear about him from people that have worked with him. And I'm wondering what you learned about Coach Popovich through your research.
Eoin 14:16
Yeah, he, I find him quite similar to Phil Jackson, um, the Chicago Bulls and the Lakers coach in that he appears to be well rounded and and well educated away from the basketball court, and he wants to really get to know the players and their background and her family. Shows a huge amount of care for his players and his his communication is all done in person. I think he has an assistant who prints out his emails and stuff that that he doesn't really respond to, I suppose, modern technology. And there's a great story about about Popovich in the book called The culture code by Daniel Coyle, who. Where before he drafted Tim Duncan in 1997 he flew to his homeland in the US Virgin Islands, and spent a couple of days getting to know Tim Duncan and his family and and his friends and his his schoolmates, and pretty much doing everything apart from talking about basketball to to try to identify if, if Tim Duncan was the kind of guy that he could work alongside as a as a number one draft pick, and if he had the personality be coached hired by Popovich. And suppose it goes on to show that he had a Tim Duncan and popfish together coached and played for 19 years and won five championships, and Tim Duncan's in the Hall of Fame. So I think that story resonates quite well with how Popovich treats his players. And there's another one where he at the end of every season, he says he thanks his players for allowing allowing him to corston, which strikes me of a huge humility on his part as well.
Jonathan Cole 16:08
Oh, you obviously get a lot of learnings out of these books. You know, we're obviously always interested in the sport, to the business world. What about to the teaching world? Do you actually use some of the techniques that you've heard from the other coaches into how you deal with the kids at school?
Eoin 16:24
Yeah, definitely. I mean, there's strong correlation between teaching and coaching. And I think a lot of famous coaches, particularly rugby, have, maybe like Stuart Lancaster, have been teachers in their their previous careers. And again, I suppose it comes back down to trying to create positive relationships with whether it's with students or with athletes. And to, I suppose there's a go cross over there between both, right.[PB3]
Jonathan Cole 16:53
Okay, one last question from me before heading back to to Paul. You know you obviously like Tom Brady and and the success he's had. You know, do you think he's one of those kind of players who could go on to be a good coach? And if yes, why? Because often the great players are not great coaches. So what you think about him?
Eoin 17:17
Yeah, like, it's hard to see how he wouldn't be a good coach given his, I suppose, where he came from and his drive and his resilience and his passion for the game, but he also has lot of humility and family values. I know he's started become an analyst on the NFL, which would be pretty interesting to hear his insights. But like he said, my connection with my teammates is through joy and love. It's not through fear. It's not through influence. That's not how I lead. So if that's his attitude to, I suppose, being the coach on the field as a quarterback, it's, it's, I suppose, hard to see how he wouldn't have positive relationships with with players that he was coaching, which would be interesting to see if he did pursue that career.
Paul Barnett 18:08
Owen, there's a couple of Irish coaches you talk about in the book. There's Jim Gavin, who's in the he's on my dream list to interview five, five championships in a row, and Eamon O'Shea, a lot of the the sport, the GAA, the hurling and the Gaelic in Ireland is amateur. And I'm wondering if you've if this has any influence, or has it impacted the way that you think the coaching has developed in Ireland relative to other parts of the world.
Eoin 18:44
Yeah, so I think sometimes with Gaelic, games can be quite a closed nature, in that coaches maybe don't really share what they're doing with their teams, maybe for fear of giving someone else an advantage. I think that started to turn in recent years, where there's a lot more open communication between coaches, I think, like the one thing that resonates from Jim Gavin is his meticulous detail, possibly from his military background, where he would have a list of what ifs in the lead up to a game. You know, what if the boss breaks down? What if a player gets injured in the in the warm up? And again, comes across as incredibly humble, given he's the only coach in Irish gala games history to win five on Ireland in a row. Uh, your previous guest on the on the podcast, Liam sheady, will be a huge inspiration of mine. And again, planning and preparation. And while it's an amateur game, he really tries to bring a professional environment to the to the Tipperary hurling setup, and again, making everybody feel valued where, if. Talked about the week of an all iron final, having 41 to one player meetings. That it doesn't matter if you're number one or number 31 everybody has the same value and the same importance, which is a huge learning point for me from like Celine. Sheety Liam
Paul Barnett 20:15
was pretty special. We'll keep going on. Jim Gavin, hopefully one day we'll we'll get an introduction to him, but he is, he's, he's terrific. And of course, Eamon is as well. Oh, and thank you for spending half an hour with us today to talk about the book. It really is a great read. I and you can read it in one afternoon, or you can dip in and out of it. It's a, it's a, it's a terrific read. It's, I can see how it was a labor of love for you, and I hope it is a great success, and I look forward to reading Volume Two whenever that comes out.
Eoin 20:48
Yeah, thanks. A million you.